Microphones

[dlingner]

We have a family band, and I want to use a single mic set up for playing... (Traditional Bluegrass stage set-up)

Would like to get feedback as to what some of you are using. Dont want to spend over $200.

Thanks,

Dave

[glauber]

For this price, i'd think it would have to be one of the Chinese Newman clones. Hopefully someone will come up with more detail.

But i wanted to plug a good magazine: if you want to have more information about microphones and recording than you ever thought possible, try Tapeop magazine. Free subscription (for US address - paid elsewhere)! Real paper magazine, not one of those email things. I've subscribed to this for a year now, and it's always been a cool read.

[steve V. johnson]

Well, I only use it for my instrument(s), not for the whole band, but I have a Shure KSM-27 that I like. Alternatively I use a CAD E-100 (the original one, not the new one), but it has very high output and may be too hot for the full band set-up. They are nice, and inexpensive, too, tho.

For one-mic stage use, it seems that it's critical to look at the width of the pickup pattern. Most mics priced up to $200 have narrow pickup patterns, the widest being the cardioid (heart-shaped) pattern and many have the much narrower, hypercardioid or supercardioid patterns.

After a scan of the Musicians Friend site (which I use for reference but rarely buy from) for both dynamic and condensor microphones, several candidates came up. AKG makes a couple nice ones in that range, and one of them may have more than one pickup pattern. Blue's "Ball" microphones are very good for the $, but may not have the trad onstage look ...
AudioTechnica's condensor mics are generally good and often used (around here anyway) by folks doing one-mic stage setups. The new AT2020 will leave you change for lunch. The M-Audio mics are good. And that Shure KSM-27, tho it is nominally more than you want to spend at an everyday eBay price of $250.

I have only studio experience with the MXL, Marshall, Nady and other Chinese-made large diaphragm condensor mics, but those experiences haven't been good enough to recommend them (at least not to anyone who doesn't NEED a $50 mic RIGHT NOW... <GG>).

I hope this helps...

stv

[Ken Sager]

You can pick up an AT 4033 for around $250 on Ebay. I love mine.

http://search.ebay.com/at-4033_W0QQfromZR40

[Ken Sager]

These are the folks I bought my mic from:

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/4033-Audio-Technica-AT4033-Microphone-w-Shock-Mount_W0QQitemZ7362631238QQcategoryZ15198QQs
sPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">http://cgi.ebay.com/4033-Au....iewItem</a>

One of the better ebay experiences.

[earthsave]

WE use the AT4033... I think it was $299 new.

[Dennis Schubert]

Regarding the $200 budget -- don't forget that you will also need a phantom power source (on your PA or a separate unit) for a large-diaphragm mic. And maybe a 15- or 31-band EQ to tame the feedback frequencies.

[steve V. johnson]

LOL!! Ironweed!!

To be fair, one can operate condensor mics (large diaphragm or small) in a PA without feedback, or without a remedial EQ.
The best way is not to use monitor speakers. If you can hear yourselves without 'em, go for it.

I used to do PA for a number of the Irish trad groups around here, and since they were used to playing in "sessions" in pubs and restaurants, they didn't want to use monitors. That was great fun, I could mic stuff however I wanted as long as I had the main speakers placed far enough in front of the mics.

I don't know if Scot's (earthsave's) band uses monitors or not, but I've heard them use the one-mic method and sound good in a very tricky brick corner in a local joint...

My only point is that you don't necessarily need to add other audio hardware to use just one LD condensor mic onstage.

stv

[dlingner]

I want to thank you all for the great feed back...

sliabhstv, I checked out your music... very good. I am a big fan of celtic... how can one be into oldtime and bluegrass, without an appreciation for Celtic music... from which so much of it originated?

I own a Octave Mandolin made by Freshwater in Scotland, for Celtic play. Bouzouki is so cool... the sustain is awesome! Perfect for letting those open chords ring (drone).

Ken and earthsave, I appreciate the recommendation. I will consider the AT4033.

I would appreciate any additional mic recommendations.

Dave

[mandopete]

Another vote for the AT-4033.

[jim simpson]

The group I play with uses the single mic for vocals. There are some rooms that make it very challenging to get the sound right. I wish we had a soundperson to man our board as it's sometimes hard to hear what the audience hears. There can be such a variety to the environments one plays in. I remember seeing DLQ play a room when they were just starting to use the single mic. Feedback for at least an hour and this was before they started to play. I don't think Doyle welcomed my suggestion to put the speakers out in front of the mic but this is what he eventually did. I understand he has it down pretty good these days. (no hijack intended)

[steve V. johnson]

Wandering from the topic... (sorry!)

Dave wrote: "sliabhstv, I checked out your music... very good. #I am a big fan of celtic... how can one be into oldtime and bluegrass, without an appreciation for Celtic music... from which so much of it originated? "

Thanks for your kind words, I'm very glad you enjoyed it! #We sure have fun with it. #I can't answer your rhetorical question &lt;GG&gt;, but I can attest that it works the other way. #Playing Irish has opened up all kinds of new insights and enjoyments of OT and BG for me. #A lot of our local pals play both Irish and OT. #BG is... a bit further and ... um... more hardcore, perhaps. #The BG guys always say, 'How can you play that fast?!?' and we blink and look at each other cuz we were about to ask them the same thing... &lt;GGG&gt;

Congrats on the Freshwater, I have played several that were truly noble instruments. #(See ya over in the CBOM section... &lt;GGG&gt;)

I would expect that any of the AT LDC mics would do well for this application.
I'd be real, real tempted to try the wonderfully inexpensive 2020... When I look at the polar patterns and frequency graphs, there doesn't seem to be very much diffference. I might be more careful about those figures for studio use, but for live work, they look just fine. Pick one... &lt;GG&gt;

stv

[tree]

I'd be real, real tempted to try the wonderfully inexpensive 2020... #When I look at the polar patterns and frequency graphs, there doesn't seem to be very much diffference. #I might be more careful about those figures for studio use, but for live work, they look just fine. #Pick one... &lt;GG&gt;

stv

When we bought our sound system back in January I was all hot to get an AT 4033. #But when the sales guy had us A/B it with a 2020, we couldn't tell the difference (hopefully that doesn't speak too poorly of our ears). #At the price, we got TWO 2020s instead of one 4033.

We use both mics with no monitors, one for vocals and one to catch my mando breaks. #We make sure to position the mics behind the speakers. #No serious feedback problems to speak of. #

I am interested in the "wired" in-ear monitor system that TonyP described in another thread here recently. #In fact, I picked up the exact Phillips ear buds he uses. #Now all we need is a headphone amp to give them a proper trial as in-ear monitors. #If I like 'em, maybe my bandmates will try 'em out.

Also considering purchasing a power conditioner, based on that same thread.

[dlingner]

You guys have me sold on the AT2020. Let me tell you what we have as far as instuments at this time. I play guitar and clawhammer banjo primarily, wife on upright bass, one daughter plays accordian, one plays fiddle and my son, mando. This was my thought...

Put guitar, fiddle and mando around one mike. Accordian on another mic, (as she really has to sit down... them things are heavy! And possibly try to pick up bass with that one too. Does that make sense or do we need a mike mounted on bass.

What other equipment do you think we would need... assuming we are playing outdoors in small venues... say 100-200 people watching. Small indoors as well.

Speakers, mixers etc.

Thanks!

[tree]

An inexpensive dynamic mic wrapped in a cloth and laid on the bridge of the bass, underneath the strings, works well for us. #That way the bass player doesn't have to wear out his fingers trying to compete with the rest of us around the condenser mics. (Plus, the condenser does pick him up more than I think he realizes.)

[phriend2spin]

You should stick with the old style with just one mic. Here is a Nady RSM-2. It retails for about $200.

[dlingner]

phriend2spin, thank you for the recommendation.

How do you use a mic like the NADY RSM-2... they say it has a "figure 8" audio directional (pickup)pattern... both front and rear... wide sweet spots.

So, do you place the mic so sweet spots are side to side and not directly behind or infront of mic? We don't want to mic the crowd obviously?

The pictures don't show a shock mount. Do you usually use one?

Who else recommends this kind of mic, and why? Any drawbacks to these ribbon mics?

Thanks!

[Fuzzyway]

Well aside from the figure 8 pattern on the Nady, the main drawback is the ribbon itself. I have a Royer R122 ribbon and I would never think about using it as a "single mic" in a bluegrass situation.

Ribbons tend to have a "darker sound" and you have to be really carefull with the ribbon itself. Used outdoors, a sudden gust of wind coming through the mic could break the ribbon.

I think the 4033 or the 2020 is a much better choice for what you want to use if for.

Best, fuzzy

[steve V. johnson]

Dave asked: "Put guitar, fiddle and mando around one mike. Accordian on another mic, (as she really has to sit down... them things are heavy! And possibly try to pick up bass with that one too. "

I'd use one mic on the string trio as you say, the other one for both the bass and the accordion. The accordion may have to be positioned a little further away, those things are generally louder than basses.

If you have a mixer with extra mic inputs, it might be nice to put a pickup on the bass ...

stv

[steve V. johnson]

On the Nady ribbon mic recommendation, Dave asked:
"How do you use a mic like the NADY RSM-2... they say it has a "figure 8" audio directional (pickup)pattern... both front and rear... wide sweet spots."

Now... I LOVE ribbon mics, and I have used some of them in a live situation*, but having said that, I don't find the Nady (and there are two others that are identical marketed under two other names) to be a very good example of ribbon mics. Have a look at the current issue of Electronic Musician Magazine for some pretty accurate reviews of some contemporary ribbon mics, including the Nady.

"So, do you place the mic so sweet spots are side to side and not directly behind or infront of mic? We don't want to mic the crowd obviously? "

The two ... um... 'loops' of the figure-8 are at the front and back of the mic (0º and 180º), with "null points" at the sides (90º & 270º). So the stuff you put at 90º and 270º from the front of the mic will be 'heard' very, very much less by the mic. Don't worry about crowd noise. Watch the History Channel and listen to the recordings made in the WWII era with Fig-8 ribbon mics on the stages. It's ok. &lt;GG&gt;

The real problem with ribbon mics in general (with a few modern exceptions) is that they have very low output. That's what made condensor mics and dynamic mics so very dominant in the audio world for so long. Now that we can record to computer-based systems with very low noise floors, we can use ribbon mics again, and we also have much better preamps than we did a couple of decades ago.

In a live situation, with ... oh... say a Mackie or (perish the thought... &lt;G&gt a Behringer mixer, you'd have to crank in all the gain you had to get a ribbon mic (especially a Nady or it's clone siblings) to reproduce your playing without loads of preamp, mixer and background noise coming thru.

Ribbons typically have rolled-off high ends and somewhat boosted mid- and low-midranges, which is how the modern cliche "warm" got applied to them. Not what I'd want for American traditional acoustic music on a stage. I'd much rather be able to dial out some top end (even the harsh kind from a cheap Asian condensor mic) than not to have it there at all.

"The pictures don't show a shock mount. Do you usually use one?"

I rarely use shock mounts on ribbon mics. I use shock mounts a lot, tho, even on dynamic mics onstage, and for several reasons: If there is a hollow wooden-frame stage, it can ring like a huge bass drum; If the players tap, stomp on, or kick the mic stand feet, it can be very distracting to the audience (and the other players! &lt;GG&gt; And it provides a cushion for singers so if they kick the mic stand or forget where they are, they don't bust a lip (or a tooth!) on a hard-mounted mic.

* Full disclosure: I use Beyerdynamic M500 ribbon mics for vocals and dobro/mandolin (same player) for live shows with our band The Lopers. I love 'em. None of my other ribbon mics are allowed to leave the studio. &lt;GG&gt; The M500 is sort of a German SM58, tho, without all that ribbon 'mojo'.

I agree with Fuzzy, completely. That Royer is a wonderful mic, too, but I wouldn't really consider using even it in this situation. The ribbon elements can be stretched or moved out of their proper place by high winds, by dropping them or by sudden high sound pressure levels. Too fragile for everyday road use, IMO.

The ATs are well-proven and at the price, easily replaced if damaged.

stv

[tree]

The ATs are well-proven and at the price, easily replaced if damaged.

stv

I can vouch for that too . . . we had to replace one that got dropped last month.