Okay. I've learned major scales all over the fretboard. Seems to be lots of information out there on that. If someone says "lets play that in any major key," I'm pretty much good to go. But, I've missed, and don't seem to find much around the Cafe on learning minor scales. Guess it's just one of those mental blocks that I've developed in my relatively new learning process. Any suggestions?
Hi Pat,
The reason for the lack of information is probably the fact that minor scales allow for much more flexibility than major scales do.
The "conventional-wisdom" minor scales are as follows:
natural minor: 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 1 (as compared to major)
harmonic minor: 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7 1
melodic minor: 1 2 b3 4 5 6 7 1 b7 b6 5 4 b3 2 1 (different ascending than descending)
In some styles "minor" might refer to one of the modes:
Dorian: 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 1
Aeolian (same as natural minor)
Phrygian: 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 1
In addition, there is the so called "Jazz minor" that is the same as the ascending form of the classical melodic minor.
There is the pentatonic minor: 1 b3 4 5 b7 1
The problem is that in different styles, different minors will prove useful -- often several different types in one style.
Don't get me started on the classical forms (natural, melodic and harmonic) -- they rarely function in the way you would expect them to. Scales, after all, are melodic source material but not an end in themselves.
Hope this helps.
Well, Jim, that should make things really clear for a beginner! LOL! Olgraypat, if someone just says "minor" without qualifying what kind of minor it is, 99% of the time they are referring to the natural minor, or Aeolian mode. You take the major scale and lower the third, sixth and seventh notes of the major scale a half step each and you are there. So in the key of C, the major scale of C, D, E, F, G, A, B becomes the C minor scale of C, D, Eb, F, G, Ab, Bb.
So, any practical advice? Like, for example, to find the A min natural scale, go to the ____ scale, move up a certain mumber of frets, etc? I like things simple. Or, since I am becoming more familiar with pentatonic scales, how to learn the pentatonic minor.....maybe that would be a good place to start......... Or is there just no simple to learn this. For example, I would like to learn "wayfaring Stranger." In fact, I'm working on just picking it out, but I think it's in A min. Is there a simple way for me to locate A min (natural, I assume) on the fretboard?
For A minor, one way to do it would be:
On the G, or lowest string, the frets would be: 2-4-5-7
On the D, string, the frets would be: 2-3-5-7
On the A, string, the frets would be: 2-3-5-7
On the E, string, the frets would be: 1-3-5
Play from A to A using the C scale notes. A B C D E F G A. No flats or sharps. Aeolian mode can be thought of this way in any key. The sixth (relative minor)note played in the scale of the first degree. A to A in the case of the Key of C. E to E in the case of the key of G, etc.
We few, we happy few.
Okay. So, next time someone says this one's in "A min" I'm ready. I say, That's Aeolian mode? And proceed to noodle around in the C maj scale, realizing that my scale starts with A and ends in A rather than C to C. BUT, going back to practicality, since every song in A min isn't going to call for me to begin with an A, wouldn't, for all practical purposes, the A min scale just be the C scale, keeping in mind that the root note is A instead of C? and so on, for the other minor keys and their relative majors?
Originally Posted by
That really depends who you are playing with. The quickest way to get a beginner confused is to tell them something that isn't true enough of the time.
I've been playing for many years in many different situations and it is my experience that most people will just say minor without qualifiers when refering to any of the scales that I listed. The only ones who get more specific are teachers-- when they are teaching.
This is true in many styles of music. Most people don't know which form of the scale they are in AND in many cases is doesn't matter because trying to reduce minor to a single scale is a gross oversimplification.
Any decent violin scale book will have what you need. My kid's teacher recommended Essentials for Strings (I think that is the title) and it has two- and three-octave scales in all the keys, minor and major with the fingering for position changes as well. Each key is associated with the relative minor. I am sure that there are other similar books as well, perhaps some online.
Jim
Jim
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Playing lately:
Brentrup A4C -- 1915 Frank Merwin Ashley violin -- 1904 Embergher Type 3 -- 1937 Gibson L-Century -- 1939 Gibson L-00 -- ca. 1890s Celebrated Benary Banjo -- 1985 Monteleone Grand Artist Mandola
Pat -
To break it down - You already know A natural minor if you know C major. #And yes if everyone is jamming in A minor, just use the notes from the C major scale freely, and you will do fine...
EXCEPT REMEMBER THIS ONE THING: In natural minor, always AVOID emphasizing or landing on the sixth of the scale. #If you do, you change the tonality. #You can use the sixth (in A minor, an F) as a passing tone, just don't stay there. #It's a hot potato.
By the same token, when playing in C major, avoid the fourth like a hot potato - passing is okay, just don't stay there (that would be the F again). It will change the tonality. All notes of the C major are fair game.
The best way to test this out is play your C major scale against a C pedal bass, and then against an A pedal bass. #You'll hear it right away. #Major - avoid the fourth. #Minor - avoid the sixth.
And of course, you can transpose the relative major/minor relationship to any key. #E minor is G major. #F major is D minor. #Just watch the 'avoid notes', and play the rest of the notes freely.
(Oh, and Jim Dalton - I don't think Pat is going to be improvising against alt chords today, so this is probably not dangerous oversimplification, just simple and safe tips to get up and running. Agreed?)
Obviously this is not what I'm talking about either. #
I am not going to waste my time trying to clarify.
Yikes - Did I say something wrong? If I did, I apologize. I will bow out of this conversation now.
groveland,
Go figure. Don't loose any sleep about it.
Just trying to avoid having my comments misrepresented. Pardon me for getting involved at all.
Not at all; your post was exemplary, and we could have done without the rest.
Okay guys. All contributions appreciated and helpful. My theory is that we all learn in different ways. One of my "quirks" is that I need to see some progress quickly. So, I got some stuff I can begin with on a low level, work with that, until some of the more advanced stuff begins to make more sense. I'll keep notes from Jim D, which I'm sure will be helpful. Thanks to all. It all helps me make more sense of it.
Gawd, what a bunch of whiners! If you are a thin-skinned prima donna with no sense of humor, then an internet message board may not be the place for you! If you can't swim, don't jump in the pool!
Is there a similar correlation between blues scales? Is the C blues scale also suitable for Am in most cases?
"First you master your instrument, then you master the music, then you forget about all that ... and just play"
Charlie "Bird" Parker
Howdy-do, everybody!
Hey, O.G. Pat! There really isn't such a "quick" solution. Understanding scales takes a little bit o' time. Understanding music theory....... never, really! I mean, it's an open subject... It's on-going! It's alive!
With a keyboard, you might be able to visualize a minor scale more easily... Do, re, me (flat!), so, fa, la (flat!), te (sharp!,) doh! If you don't have a keyboard, start on, say yer low G string on the mandolin...
G...A...B-flat!,...C,...D,...E-flat,...F#,...G!
That's my simple explanation. But I sure do dig ALLof the explanations, here. Like pat says, "we all learn in different ways." And even if it's over your head for now... eventually, it might make sense. And for some, it already does make sense... So... please keep contributing all information, everybody! Thanks!
No.
But there is such a thing as minor blues. You could
say it emphasizes the fourth and the augmented fourth
of the scale a lot. Then there is the option of
major or minor seventh on the dominant (g# or g).
A really beautiful example of as minor blues is
Journey, recorded by Gerry Mulligan and Dave Brubeck
36 years ago. Right now I can't think of a more recent
example.
I play a lot with some guitarists who are veteran blues players. When explaining a song, the instructions are often something like "this one is in E and it starts on the 5". I can actually sort of handle that - it will be a B, then an A, then an E turnaround and just some general 12 bar E blues. There might be some 7s in there and I can recognize then and starting adding them to my rhythm. I can even find some lead using the D strings at the 2nd fret as my scale anchor. Impressed? I doubt it. Anyway, while I am not all that good at it yet, at least I am not lost. But when someone says "this one is in A minor", I am pretty much toast. I hang in and play two string rhythm using the simple 1-5 power form, since that mixes in okay with major or minor, but if I try to do any lead or double stops that aren't 1-5, I almost invariably sour it.
"First you master your instrument, then you master the music, then you forget about all that ... and just play"
Charlie "Bird" Parker
Now that I have more than two minutes to respond, I'll try to make a simple statement that hopefully won't be taken as being "too thin-skinned".
My main "issue" (if you want to think of it that way) is that I spend the better part of my week working with remedial theory students and fixing an awful lot of misconceptions. Some of these students are recovering from faulty teaching and some have simply just believed everything that they read on the web.
So, I simply stated that the whole concept of minors is a gray area -- not black and white.
There's nothing really wrong with simplification as an introductory technique, as long as it's explicit.
That is: "Well, it's more complex than this, but here's a simple version to start on & then we'll go from there...". If you try to give all the information at once about a complex, grey subect--such as minor scales/keys--you risk overwhelming the "student". But only giving the simple version, without mention that it is a simplification, can leave the "student" in dire need of remedial help from heroes such as Jim.
Any scale with a b3 has a minor sound. Just use all the other notes as your ear likes to hear them. There are a TON of possibilities, try them all. Best of luck.
-----------
Pete Martin
http://www.petimarpress.com
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Right on, petimer!
JimD, you are correct about the whole grey area! You sure have a lot of informative information to share! Thank you!
This is a cool thread! My favorite type of music......the sad, minor, stuff...
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