tenor banjo as mando cello?

[arbarnhart]

I got this crazy idea. I saw this banjo bass:

Goldtone Banjo Bass

And it made the gears start turning. What about something in the low range, but above the bass? I know tenor banjos are often tuned OM (Irish tuning),but what about mando cello? The reasoning is to get down to or below the low E of a guitar.

[glauber]

AFAIK, the Irish tuning (octave bellow mandolin) already leaves the tenor strings with too little tension. Going lower than that may not sound very good. But maybe a bass banjo like that Goldtone might work nicely as a banjocello.

[Pete Martin]

Being a player of tenor banjo and mandocello, I can't imagine it would sound anything but terrible. #Sorry if I offend anyone!

[glauber]

Being a player of tenor banjo and mandocello, I can't imagine it would sound anything but terrible. Sorry if I offend anyone!

By playing the banjo, you mean?

[arbarnhart]

I would use mando cello strings, though with the shorter scale (not all that much shorter), it would have less tension. I thought people changed strings for Irish tuning? At least one place I was looking at tenor banjos mentioned different strings for the Irish tuning. I had a neighbor ask about the possibility of making a bass banjo. He had tried a heavy string on his banjo and said it sounded "interesting" and would probably be a good bass for porch picking. I thought he was nuts but I searched around and found that Goldtone. The user reviews are pretty consistant; it sounds okay but is uncomfortable to play (13" head). I would love to have an acoustic 4 string 5ths tuned instrument that plays down at or below guitar E. The real answer is to practice my guitar more, but for some reason the guitar just doesn't grab me like it used to.

[glauber]

Why not a real mandocello?

[arbarnhart]

Because I am cheap and I can get a tenor banjo within my budget and sometimes I want a tenor banjo just as a tenor banjo.

[glauber]

Check the classifieds, add # 15522. I'd buy it if i had the spare cash, and that would be a terrible thing, because it would probably mess up my leaning the mandolin.

[mrmando]

Well, there is such a thing as a cello banjo, y'know. I think Bacon made 'em.

I use classical guitar strings for Irish tenor banjo and they're a lot less twangy. They'd probably work for cello tuning as well, but I don't know what gauges to recommend.

The bigger the head the better, I would imagine.

[arbarnhart]

Ain't the internet wonderful? You can see and hear a cello banjo (and others) right here:

Banjo Orchestra

Be sure to listen to the Guitar and Cello Banjo playing together if you want to hear what it sounds like as a bass behind something. I didn't think as much of it in the track of it alone, but it sounds okay with the guitar.

[John Kavanagh]

I tried a banjo bass once, and really didn't like it. (It was a small bass drum with a bass guitar neck on it - fairly good workmanship, but the lowest string sounded very poor.)

Banjos aren't really good at low notes, to my ears, and the tenor banjo is barely big enough for Irish tuning (neck too short, head too small). What can sound good, with the right strings, is a guitar in mandocello tunng. You can have two strings doubled, or go five-string (C G d a e') with or without an octave course on the bass.

[arbarnhart]

I found an eBay seller that has new Tenor Guitars shipping with mandocello tuning standard. In his description, he had a blurb about the history and that the common top 4 (pitch wise) guitar string tuning is actually a more recent wrinkle. Anyway, I sent Santa a note (and cc'ed the wife) to start looking at eBay for vintage arch top tenors. The Kay and Harmony models often sell for $200 or less. Hopefully, I will find one under the tree, along with a set of mandocello strings...

[jmkatcher]

Remember that tenor guitars have four strings to a mandocello's eight and a shorter 23" scale. They're nowhere near as bassy as a mandocello either. They are lots of fun to play with though.

[keithd]

Thanks for that banjo orchestra link arbanhart - great stuff. Check this out:

http://www.nativeandfine.com/Banjo.htm

http://www.sueduffyassociates.com/banjos.html

There are a few sound files at the first link; very nice stuff.

Ketih

[arbarnhart]

Remember that tenor guitars have four strings to a mandocello's eight and a shorter 23" scale. #They're nowhere near as bassy as a mandocello either. #They are lots of fun to play with though.

As long as I can tune E or lower, I am not hung up on it being exactly mandocello tuning. At 23" versus 26", I wold probably be able to tune with less tension or tune DAEB. I want to play guitar style bass lines for blues, but I don't really want to play my guitar these days. I would have two sets of strings in one package.

[glauber]

I believe the standard tuning is the same as a mandola (CGDA), one octave higher than the cello.

Lots of info here: http://www.tenorguitar.com/

[RolandTumble]

Yes, standard tenor guitar tuning is the same as the mandola. This is also standard tuning for tenor banjo. "Irish" tuning a tenor banjo (GDAE, octave mandolin), does involve changing to heavier gauge strings, and there's some debate about the best gauges--not surprising, since what's best on one instrument may not be best on another.

You can do the same thing with a tenor guitar. I picked one up at a garage sale not too long ago, insanely cheaply (no, I won't tell you, but I've been ofered better than triple my money). I've set it up "Irish", and it's a real blast to play, even with stumbles over the long-scale fingering (I'm mostly a straight mandolin player--only started paying attention to the CBOM forum since I got the tenor). Again, it did involve changing the string gauges.

In the "Files" section at the "Tenor Guitar Registry" Yahoo group, there's a text file with recommended gauges for several tunings, not just the two mentioned so far....

[Bob DeVellis]

I would think fnding strings to lower a tenor guitar a full octave to cello tuning would be very tough. Although, in theory, heavier gauge strings should simply produce a lower pitch at a comparable string tension, all else remaining equal, that's usually not the case in my experience. I didn't even like dropping tenor guitar to octave mando tuning all that much and have mine back in standard pitch. Although it sounded good in GDAE, it sounds and plays much better in its intended tuning. This is a pretty nice instrument, a 1945 Martin 0-17T. The intonation is spot on with regular tenor guitar strings and I never was able to get it quite right with heavier strings in GDAE. The big, lush, double-stops just sound so much better when the thing is dead-on that I've decided to keep it there, at least for now. To my ear, the real strength of this particular instrument is harmony. When I want a lower melody, I'm moreinclined to go to an octave mandolin than a retuned tenor guitar, but what do I know?

[arbarnhart]

I find some mandocellos with smaller bodies than some tenor guitars, though it does seem the average 'cello is a little larger. And at the scales (23" versus 26" and some are 25") are close enough that 'cello strings could probably be tuned okay, maybe two intervals up (DAEB) and still be below a regular guitar. I will have to see, once I get my hands on one. What particular one I end up with will determine a lot.

Interesting observation about melody and harmony instruments. The one downside to 5ths tuning is that you pretty much can't strum a "regular" major triad with the notes in the same octave rooted on the tonic. It's a 7 fret stretch and you run out of space pretty quickly moving that monster up the neck. I have been learning crosspicking on the mando and I like the sound of that - melody becoming harmony - much more than strumming on this instrument. I imagine that will be true in lower register of the tenor as well.

[arbarnhart]

Using a .074 inch C string designed for a 25 inch scale (D'Addario) on a 22 to 23 inch scale tenor banjo tuners may be problematic. #
A substantial length of string that includes the full diameter with the winding might overwhelm the banjo tuning peg.
Longer scale plectrum banjos might be better candidates for cello tuning if the scale length doesn't result in the wrap on the wound strings stopping short of the nut.

Good point; even though I am switching my thinking to tenor guitar, this still applies. OM tuning on the tenor may be more reasonable (and less mental gymnastics to figure out notes compared to mando), but it would be nice to play guitar bass runs as written.