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Thread: F-style "conversion"

  1. #1
    Registered User steve V. johnson's Avatar
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    In the classifieds right now is a nice 1937 Gibson F-7 and in the description it says:

    "All original 1937 Gibson F-7 in great condition. Sounds great and would make an excellent conversion."

    At $11,500, what in the world would it be converted to ?!?!

    Bearer bonds? <GG> In some states "conversion" means receiving stolen property...

    Really, I don't know what conversion means in this context. Could you explain to me?

    Thanks,

    stv
    steve V. johnson

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    A lot of old Gibson ovals and cruddy F's are "converted" to F5 Loar specs. They'll have the tops redone by a super builder and replaced. That's how I've heard this used most of the time. Like a Gilchrist F2 Conversion. Maybe someone had a cracked top F2 and went ahead and had it changed to a F5. You get the old wood back and everything and a new top I guess. Never completely understood it, but I know that particular mandolin listed is notoriosly hard to play and not the best sounding. One Monroe was excited to get off.
    Paul

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    If it 'sounds great' why would one need to do a conversion at all?

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    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Take a look at the picture with the ad. Notice that the neck is short, and the bridge is sitting toward the tailpiece instead of between the f-holes.
    The F7 bodies were basically the same as the F5, but, for some reason, Gibson put the short neck on them. A conversion would involve replacing the neck with one the length of an F5 neck, thus moving the bridge to the center of the top, and resulting in a virtual F5.
    A good luthier doing the work would likely regraduate the plates if they need it, and preserve and re-use the peghead overlay. It would be tempting to use block inlays in a new fingerboard, and make it into a mandolin very similar to Sam Bush's.

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    Registered User John Rosett's Avatar
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    and all these years i've been waiting for a couple of well dressed ladies, armed with pamplets to show up at my door, asking if my mandolins have "seen the light".
    "it's not in bad taste, if it's funny" - john waters

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    Pretty interesting stuff. That would be 12 frets to the body instead of 14? I have a Pacrim that looks just like it. Even has the typical Pacrim fret markers like snow flakes etc. Only mine aint worth 11 Grand.



    " Eastman 514 #31 "

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    Registered User steve V. johnson's Avatar
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    Thanks, John, that makes perfect sense.

    The longer neck, checking the top gradations/bracing and working out the bridge positioning.

    So, what would an operation like that cost?

    Thanks,

    stv (never seems to run out of questions, does he...?)
    steve V. johnson

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    Registered User JimRichter's Avatar
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    Hey Steve

    Well for starters, It'd cost the destruction of a vintage instrument.

    Money-wise you'd be looking at several thousand dollars. Some luthiers, I know Gilchrist did it to an old F4 that Banana has at vintageinstruments.com, can use the original neck, but add an "extension" at the heel. I think John Duffey's old mandolin was the same way. I won't mention his name, but I think we both know the same Indy mando player, sent an F12 to Randy Wood to have the top/braces thinned/regraduated and he spent near $1500. That, in additon, to making a new neck, would probably put you near $3K.

    But, I've talked to Will Kimble about F7s. He said that with proper set up, an old short necked F7 can honk. He has a buddy with one and he says it's an excellent mandolin as is.

    Jim

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    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by (JimRichter @ Oct. 01 2005, 12:48)
    Well for starters, It'd cost the destruction of a vintage instrument.
    A point to consider, for sure.

    I don't advocate either way in this particular situation, but, the arguement can be made that Gibson sort of Frankenstiened those things together in the first place. That the F-hole body was designed and meant to have the bridge in the "proper" position to drive the top, and that the short neck was put on without regard for that, for whatever reason. A conversion could be thought of as correcting a mistake and improving the asthetics, design, and function of an otherwise inferior instrument.

    These days, however, with the prices and reverence for "vintage" instruments running at a fevor pitch, and with the availability of good mandolins otherwise, it would not seem economically or ethically prudent to convert.
    I think it's up to the individual in this case. I, personally, feel much more strongly that such mandolins as F4s, with their coherent design, and functional elegance, be left in as near original condition as possible.
    Just my humble opinions, and not telling anyone how to think or what to do.




  10. #10
    Gilchrist (pick) Owner! jasona's Avatar
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    I played an F7 that Randy Wood had converted to an F5 and man, was that thing a cannon. I think Randy also regraduated the top and tonebars as part of the process.
    Jason Anderson

    "...while a great mandolin is a wonderful treat, I would venture to say that there is always more each of us can do with the tools we have available at hand. The biggest limiting factors belong to us not the instruments." Paul Glasse

    Stumbling Towards Competence

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    Registered User John Rosett's Avatar
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    sunburst, your post brought to mind a question-how did the F7 come about? maybe gibson had a bunch of leftover F4/F2 necks left over at the end of the "mandolin craze" and the begining of the depression. i've heard lots of stories about gibson and the other builders using left over parts from different models to create new models, rather than throw them away. the F7's (and F10's and some prewar F12's), always struck me that way.
    john
    "it's not in bad taste, if it's funny" - john waters

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    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Me too.

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    A lot of high-end violins have had their necks replaced to get a better angle with modern (1850s?) strings. While it may be a shame to convert a Strad from its original configuration, if it renders the instrument more playable in a concert hall, it will have been done.

    While there may not be a lot of F7s and F10s out there, the fact that they're basically less efficient due to the poorly-thought-out actions of Gibson in using up their spare parts doesn't make these instruments more inherently valuable.

    Sometimes things are rare because they were just bad ideas that no one felt moved to perpetuate.

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    Registered User f5joe's Avatar
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    John Duffey let me play his conversion. He added a neck extension splice near the middle of the neck.

    One of the best mandos I ever owned was a '50's F12 conversion by Randy Wood. Essentially a Bush model. It had an original full-length neck, so no major neck work was needed.
    ..... f5joe

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    Registered User evanreilly's Avatar
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    Bill Monroe clearly evidenced a preference for the longer scale of the F-5 over the F-7. He just tossed the F-7 under the bed when he found #73987.
    However, since then, many a trashed or otherwise impaired F-2/F-4/F-7/F-10/F-12 has had serious surgery to replace the neck, regraduate the top and be 'converted' to an F-5 style instrument.

  16. #16
    Registered User steve V. johnson's Avatar
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    Jim, Evan,

    A friend and I were talking about this yesterday, and he pointed out the story about Bill Monroe rejecting the F7, 'leaving it under the bed', and he also said, 'Well, first you have to find an F5 neck from the same period...' And that sounds -tremendously- arduous and expensive. How many '37 F5 necks are lying around the world, eh?!?!?

    So the notion of building an extension makes an awful whole lotta sense. Whoo.

    Jason, It's also real cool to know that Randy Wood knows what to do with these. Cool.

    Thanks!

    stv
    steve V. johnson

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