Okay I've got the chop....

**Keith Erickson** · Sep-07-2005, 11:39pm

Hi Folks,

It seems as if my rock guitar days are catching up to me. #Playing scales is not a problem. #However I'm now venturing into bluegrass territory.

I'm trying to train my ear and learn blue grass licks. Unfortunatly El Paso, Texas is not a bluegrass town so I'm left to my own devices.

How do I go about learning some of the licks that require plucking two strings?

Thank you,

I hope that I asked the right question.

**jbrwky** · Sep-08-2005, 7:41am

There are some lessons here on the mando cafe that can get you started. If you already understand intervals, open and close harmony, etc. then double stops will start to replace simple note progressions in your playing. Go to Niles Hokkanan's site and see the lessons he has available too. His "Bluegrass Up the Neck" is good for learning bluesy licks and stomp styles which can be applied elsewhere as the spirit moves you.

**Keith Erickson** · Sep-08-2005, 9:22am

John,

Thank you for your assistance. I will most certainly consult your recommended sources.

Much Oblidged

**mandodebbie** · Sep-10-2005, 4:35pm

Whenever I hear " I'm going to be venturing into Bluegrass territory." I just have to suggest you always bring your axe.

**Peter Hackman** · Sep-13-2005, 1:32am

What, exactly, is a "bluegrass lick" ? I suggest
you think music, not genre. Use your rock background
to advatnage.
The only things to take
into account are the material, your fellow players (who
might be in need of a challenge!), and your own musical
personality.

If you're very anxious about tradition
you could fool around a bit with the mixolydian,
the dorian, and the minor pentatonic scales,
and try to integrate that into your background
and the context of your group.

**handpicked** · Sep-13-2005, 7:38am

Peter Hackman is onto something there...believe it or not...the lick from AC/DC's "Back in Black" has a great deal in common with the bluesy pentatonic runs favored by Bill Monroe...it's all a big melting pot...if you can play electric blues on guitar...yer already a better bluegrass mando picker than you think...the key I think is LISTEN to a lot of bluegrass when yer not pickin' so that the feel, timing and phrasing starts seeping into yer pores...

**Keith Erickson** · Sep-13-2005, 9:12am

You know Folks,

I'm probably making this more difficult than I really should. I'm sure that once I find that key it will fall into place.

Look how long it took me to "chop" and it happened.

As for using my rock roots, I totally agree.

I just purchased "Fade to Bluegrass" from Ironhorse. These are all Metallica songs done in bluegrass.

Originally Posted by

Whenever I hear " I'm going to be venturing into Bluegrass territory." I just have to suggest you always bring your axe.

LOL Debbie.... You said it.

Originally Posted by

you could fool around a bit with the mixolydian,

Peter, Back in HS, I played in a classic rock band called Mixolydian. Played Black Sabbath, Rush & Led Zep. Boy does that bring back memories.

**domradave** · Sep-13-2005, 9:38am

Bluegrass UP The Neck is the best mandolin book I ever bought!

Niles is a great teacher and I had a long telephone call with
him some years ago when he starting doing clawhammer banjo type
things on the mandolin.

**Keith Erickson** · Sep-13-2005, 10:02am

Dave,

I'll have to buy that book.

Thank you.

Sorry for the silly question, but what exactly is claw hammer?

Does this have anything to do with hammer on's and pull off's?

Thank you,

**Peter Hackman** · Sep-13-2005, 2:35pm

Originally Posted by (8_String_Keith @ Sep. 13 2005, 11:02)

Dave,

I'll have to buy that book.

Thank you.

Sorry for the silly question, but what exactly is claw hammer?

Does this have anything to do with hammer on's and pull off's?

Thank you,

It's a very ancient way of playing the banjo.
It's a bit hard to describe.
Basically it's a combination of brushing
across one or several strings with the curled fingers
of your right hand,
and the thumb bouncing off the fifth string on the offbeat.

Speaking of pedagogy ...

**Keith Erickson** · Sep-14-2005, 9:49am

Peter,

I think I understand. Is it like how flamenco guitar is played?

Thanks,

**mandogoshen** · Sep-26-2005, 10:40am

Hi Keith,
Just hangin' out at the 'Cafe and read your post. #Have played music in a variety of styles and situations over the years and have been bitten by the mando-bug. #There's no cure!! #I'm an americana-mutt type guitarist. #Play a little blues, fingerstyle, ect. and/or bass whenever there's a call. #Anyway, there's a book/cd teaching series by a fella named Dix Bruce. #Mel Bay is the publisher. #The one I got is called 'Fiddle Tunes with Back-Up Trax'. #It's 14 classic tunes in slow, 1/2 speed and medium-fast. #A GREAT teaching device. #It's been invaluable to me over the last few months. #Listening to and playing along with the mando player has improved my sense of rhythm and time a ton. #

One exercize I'm starting to use to improve my 'closed position'(Bb,B,Eb,Ab,etc.)playing is to 'skip' w/my index finger to the next position as I reach the octave going up instead of using my little finger.

Good luck and have fun. #There's NO CURE for mandomania, you just have to live with the disease. #Learn and use all the banjo player jokes you can get.

Jeff

**ShaneJ** · Sep-26-2005, 7:51pm

Hey Kieth, there are some great double stop exercises in the MandoZine (old CoMando) TablEdit files. I'd recommend getting TablEdit of the free TefViewer and the downloading the Exercises .zip file from MandoZine - if not ALL of the TablEdit files there. (I did that early on.)

I'm in the mando desert as well. TablEdit is a good learning/practice tool, especially if you don't have other people to pick with regularly. You can play songs at different speeds, play along with the mandolin in the song, or take the mando out and pick along with the guitar and/or other instruments in the tune.

The exercises have some great scales and arpeggios. The doublestop exercises were very helpful for me though. I felt the need to pick harmonizing notes too. If you pay attention, you will notice that each doublestop is a part of a chord at a different position on the neck.

Another tool that I've found very helpful is Chord Wizard. I use it to tune up as well as for chord shapes, fretboard roadmaps, etc. on mandolin and guitar (or any stringed instrument). It is easily adapted to alternate tunings as well. Just tell it how many strings your instrument has and what note they're tuned to, and it will map out any chord or scale you want all the way up and down the neck.

Chord Wizard doesn't have a free version, I don't think. I always like freeware, but I havn't regretted buying Chord Wizard or the paid full version of TablEdit a bit. I have put together some "jam tracks" on TablEdit with drums, bass, guitar, etc. to play along with. Mostly with those, I'm playing blues on my Strat, but easily adapted to mando too.

Hope that's helpful!

**Peter Hackman** · Sep-27-2005, 1:56am

Originally Posted by (8_String_Keith @ Sep. 14 2005, 10:49)

Peter,

I think I understand. Is it like how flamenco guitar is played?

Thanks,

In clawhammer banjo you keep the fingers of your right hand curled.

**johnM** · Sep-27-2005, 7:41pm

Here's the answer to your journey

Mike Compton = BLUEGRASS

Grab everything he's ever done, do a google search for the amazing slowdowner, install it on your computor and copy everything he does. At that point you'll be on your way to bluegrass country.

jm

**Peter Hackman** · Sep-30-2005, 11:11am

Originally Posted by (johnM @ Sep. 27 2005, 20:41)

Here's the answer to your journey

Mike Compton = BLUEGRASS

Grab everything he's ever done, do a google search for the amazing slowdowner, install it on your computor and copy everything he does. At that point you'll be on your way to bluegrass country.

jm

Eleventh Commandment:

Thou shalt not copy, thou shalt create.

**AlanN** · Sep-30-2005, 11:14am

Dave Peters (RIP) said it best (although he likely didn't pen this):

Imitate, Emulate, Innovate.

**Peter Hackman** · Oct-01-2005, 8:41am

I reject that idea, esp. the idea of copying ONE
single artist.

By all means, let other people inspire
you, listen for their solutions, understand the
problems, and devise your own solutions
(AND problems!).

Just to cite one example - I've
recently been listening to Sam Bush in various
contexts, most of them bluegrass-derived. He
might set a useful example, because his playing
is not wildly eclectic - his inventive playing on, e.g.,
King Wilkie's Run (which would be labeled
New Acoustic I suppose) connects well with
his playing in more traditional contexts.
It's not a collection of different bags or styles, but rather a continuum. Also, his is the most
exppressive use of
the tremolo, along with Grisman. Which makes him useful
as general reference point, technically.

As a beginner - way, way back -
I probably did a lot of transcribing,
which was my theory lessons. What can be done, how is it done,etc.

But I also took my ideas from many sources
and from just about any kind of music in my record collection. If I picked up anything from
BG mandolinists
(apart from a few of Monroe's blues ideas)
it was attitudes. Duffy was my hero in the late 60's.
Where did he get the idea of ending a solo (Girl Behind the Bar) on the seventh (a C in D major)?
From Buck Owens' recording of Act Naturally
I.e., use and absorb what you hear, make it your own.

As regards the mandolin I found it very useful to
learn fiddle tunes with lots of melodic detail,
especially those on Howdy Forrester's CUB album.

Interestingly, pianist Keith Jarrett recently offered
his view on musical education in an interview in Down Beat Magazine. He too rejects the idea
of emulating people in order to find your own voice.
A player may need a teacher to learn the mecahnics of playing
the instrument, then it's all up to him.

In the case at hand, the thread was started by someone who
already has musical experience and a musical identity.
In that case I still think the natural route would
be to simply transfer what you already know
- then keep and develop whatever sounds good on the
mando, and in the group. Loyalty to your fellow players, and
the audience (both of whom may profit from a challenge, too!) is far more important than loyalty to a "style" or "tradition".

**jim_n_virginia** · Oct-04-2005, 7:43pm

Keith I primarily play Bluegrass, Old Time and Celtic music, which means I mostly play a lot of old traditional songs and fiddle unes along with our original stuff.

There are hundreds of bluegrass licks, turnarounds, intos and ending. Some are famous like Lester Flatt's G run and some you just pick up from other people at jams. Many people learn a bunch of them and then do there own variations of them.

The very BEST way to learn bluegrass licks in my opinion is to listen to a lot of the old traditional music and standards. Also live music is good too.

I have a program that slows down CD's but keeps the same pitch (Slow Blast) and it really helps me figure out licks and breakdowns. And remember any bluegrass lick you hear on a guitar or banjo you can do on a mandolin.

Also Google Dawn Watson's 75 Bluegrass licks and you'll have a wealth of info and licks.

I like what Dan Crary said about bluegrass licks. They are like tools in a toolbox and when you need one you whip it out where it will fit.

Watch Tony Rice on the guitar and he knows so many bluegrass licks that he can just play anything but even he will admit that it is difficult for him to play the same thing twice because this licks (really there just phrasings) just come out automatically.

And theres nothing wrong with copying someone as long as you bring a little "YOU" into the music and make it your own.

Look at Mike Compton, he has Monroe down so good but he brings his own style into it so it is so much more than just Monroe's style.

good luck and happy pickin!