fir as tonewood?

[Paul Hostetter]

Doug fir is nothing if not bloody hard. As the preeminent framing timber, it's used green for several reasons, all good, and not the least of which is you can only slam a 16 into it when it's green. Once it's dry, you have to predrill each nail hole. It's commonly used as flooring and is nearly as durable as oak. I don't think hardness and tone are necessarily connected though.

[Spruce]

An enterprising individual could do some serious damage in the tonewood biz marketing the various "undiscovered" firs...

Size is not an issue as it tends to be in the Engelmann/Red world, with lots of trees weighing in at 5-6' in diameter...
And a lot of the trees love to split straight...

One thinks of Engelmann as having been around for eons, but in fact it's only been marketed since '78 or so...
So-ooo, an outfit marketing Noble, California Red, White, Grand, and Douglas Firs might generate a lot of interest....

I'm just a little too busy these days to take on 5 new species... #

Oh, and it terms of the availability of 100-year-old Doug Fir, it's all over the place here in the Pacific NW.
I just looked at a whole barn-full of old beams yesterday, with lots of great wood between the nail-holes...

[Scotti Adams]

..the stiffness of this top along with Darbys's tone bars along with the placement of those gives it its sound..Im sure of it. Ive played many a new mando that couldnt compare to the open-ness and the big wallop it has for being new...well..a couple of months now...it just has that played in sound. If Im not mistaken that top is 100 yrs old...

[Jeff Arey]

I've played one of Darby's Rose creations, and it was as Scotti has stated. They are loud, full-bodied tone, and very well balanced. The E string rang as loud and clear as the G. One of my previous mandos was one of Rolfe's Unicorns and it was the same way, and it had a "Douglas fir" top.

[PaulD]

Scotti; I'm confused. When I read the original "Rose is Blooming" thread I assumed that the top was a true fir as opposed to Douglas Fir. This discussion implies to me that it's Douglas Fir... do you know if that's the case? I could see that with as pronounced as the grain is.

PaulH; Are you referring to timber framing? I did use DF for rafters and the garage door header in my garage/shop to keep the width of the lumber to a minimum for the span. It's hard, but we didn't do any predrilling. The frames for the doors were a b!7ch, though! 5/8" pinned mortise & tenon joints, 3 per stile over 4 doors... 24 joints I had to cut! You aren't kidding that stuff is hard! I was very burned out on joinery by the time I got those doors done.

[Scotti Adams]

Paul..Im not sure what species of Fir it is....I dont believe Darby and I discussed that.....I just trusted his judgement and Im glad I did....Maybe the man himself will chime in here to clarify..

[sunburst]

Several years ago, I got a call for a sawmill job. (I have a woodmizer, and I used do some custom sawing.)
There is a museum of frontier culture In the Shenandoah valley, over the moubtain from me, and they had ordered Douglas fir beams for a "historical structure".
Never mind that they likely couldn't have had that timber in Virginia in the days when it was the frontier. I guess they aren't real sticklers for historical accuracy.

Anyway, they ordered them too big, so my job was to resaw them to the right size. There was a pretty good size pile of odd thickness boards when I was done. I asked if I could keep some, and they said "sure".
There wasn't very much there that didn't have w-i-d-e grain, but here's a board that I have around that I might use for a top someday. I have so much wood that's so much better than this that I might not use it.

[sunburst]

BTW, that's the refrigerator magnet used for scale, not the case sticker.

[Scotti Adams]

..yea John..that grain is pretty wide..even wider than mine....hopefully you will find a use for it..

[Spruce]

"I assumed that the top was a true fir as opposed to Douglas Fir. This discussion implies to me that it's Douglas Fir... do you know if that's the case?"

That's Doug Fir in the Rose mando pic...

And from a woodcutter's prospective, it's some of the raunchiest Doug Fir I've ever seen in an instrument top... #

Usually one tries to avoid compression wood in instrument tops, even in small amounts, as it tends to be less stable...

But hey, if it sounds great and is indeed 100 years old, what's the difference?

Here's a definition of compression wood I found on the web which fits the Rose top perfectly...

"Abnormal wood formed on the lower side of branches and inclined trunks of softwood (fir & pine) trees. #Compression wood can be identified by its relatively wide annual rings, typically eccentric, relatively large amount of summerwood, and its lack of demarcation between springwood and summerwood in the same annual rings."

[sunburst]

Bruce, is this compression wood?
It's red spruce, and it apparently sounds fine under a dark sunburst in a guitar top. I've had some of lying around for a while and it seems stable. I've sold some of this wood to some well known guitar builders. (cheap)
I don't want to steer this thread too far from the subject (doug fir), but since the subject came up...

PaulH, if it all gets to be too much, I suppose you'd have a potential use for your local hemlock, but I wouldn't advise it!

[Scotti Adams]

Well..Bruce,,I dont know how to take your last reply...even tho you put the little winky guy there...something doesnt make sense......when I sent you the pics of that wood you said you would like to use that kind of wood in a top and that it should be used more often...what gives?....raunchy..yea..right...all I know is that it sounds great...its more stable feeling than red spruce or Englemann.....and it kicks ###...so....I dont think your analogy is correct in all cases. Theres no question that you are the wood authority here..Im not questioning your ensight....Im just trying to understand why you told me something and then post something completely different here...no ill intentions here...just looking for answers...

[Paul Hostetter]

I'm waiting for Bruce's answer to this. I like the reference on his linked page about compression that shows a section of Sitka grown in Scotland.

John, how did you get a refrigerator magnet to stick to that board? Is there a lot of iron in it?

[Spruce]

"Bruce, is this compression wood? "

Yep...
Actually, it's compression wood in that one 5-year band, flanked by some fairly normal looking graining...
Very common in Red....

"...what gives?"

Well, there's the "perfect" wood that I seek out as a wood dealer that everyone jumps on like flies on feces, and then there's the wood with lots of character and "flaws" that appeals to me personally as a maker...
Two entirely different tastes... #

As an example, when I first started cutting wood, bearclaw was considered to be a defect and yet I sought it out because it appealed to me in a big way...
These days it's sought after by a lot of makers....

I happen to like pin-knots in the upper bout of a fine violin too, but try convincing others on that one...

No, I love the fact that someone would use a piece of fir that violates all the rules of tonewood cutting, and yet gets it to sound great...

It shows confidence as a maker and a healthy respect for the resource...

[Scotti Adams]

...thanks Bruce..I couldnt have asked for a better reply..you are a class act...I hope in my journeys we can meet...this forum is a better place with you...

[peter.coombe]

I have made one mandolin from Fir. #Douglas Fir is imported into Australia as construction timber. #I believe most of it now comes from plantation grown trees from New Zealand (useless for musical instruments), but occasionally a pack arrives from the USA. #I always keep an eye out for the good stuff which is really rare nowadays. #Found a 2" board about 6m long, only 2 knots, cut perfectly on the quarter from end to end, and with fine even grain right across, a few years ago. #Zero twist, and no runout right through the whole board. #Complete fluke, the hardware store had no idea what they had. #Still have it, and will probably use it for some instruments eventually. #Is enough wood for quite a few mando tops. #Was green when I bought it, but is now nice and dry.

The one mandolin I made was probably the loudest I have made and was real sweet, but with more fundamental and less overtones than my Spruce mandolins. #I quite liked it, but it look longer to sell, so I have not repeated the experiment.

[futrconslr]

I have a fir topped mando. Its woofy with alot of bass. Its also loud. You dont have to hit it very hard to hear it and when you do hit it hard you can really hear it.

[Dale Ludewig]

This has been a great discussion. I've just been reading with much interest. I know my local lumberyard, a place i would not seek tonewood from, lumps all "that stuff" as what they call SPF - "Spruce, Pine, Fir". From what I've seen, they are bringing in Doug Fir. My experience with it is that the difference if density between the early and late wood is so significant that it'd be hard to get a level surface on in when sanding with anything finer that 80 grit. Plus I've had much experience with separation of the wood at those growth stages. Is that the cause of splitting referenced above? Or am I mistaken about what I'm looking at from the local yard, in that it might not be Douglas Fir? Maybe it's just been grown too fast by the "replanters"? The stuff John showed (and Scotti) looked like it had grown up in a drier/ colder climate than what I'm used to seeing. Help?

[Spruce]

" Maybe it's just been grown too fast by the "replanters"?"

No, we're all dealing with old growth here...
You don't even want to know what second growth Doug Fir looks like... #

" My experience with it is that the difference if density between the early and late wood is so significant that it'd be hard to get a level surface on in when sanding with anything finer that 80 grit. "

Most of the DF I've dealt with is very fine-grained (30-40 GPI or so) and works very nicely...

"Plus I've had much experience with separation of the wood at those growth stages. #Is that the cause of splitting referenced above?"

There's been a lot of rumors here and elsewhere about the tendency of DF to split...
I'm not aware of this trait...

I have seen a lot of wind-shake in DF, which is the tendency of a given tree to split consistantly on the same grain-line, but that is usually pretty predictable in a given piece of wood...

"Or am I mistaken about what I'm looking at from the local yard, in that it might not be Douglas Fir?"

The next time you cut a piece of plywood on a table saw, memorize "that" smell...
For the most part it is the smell of DF, and is very distinctive...

That is the way to ID Doug Fir, whether it be a board in a lumber yard or a log on a beach...

Thanks for the kind words, Scotti....
Love to see and play that mando someday, as the wood selection is right up my alley...

[Dale Ludewig]

I have seen a lot of wind-shake in DF, which is the tendency of a given tree to split consistantly on the same grain-line, but that is usually pretty predictable in a given piece of wood...

Living here in the flat plains of northern Illinois, I don't see much old growth DF! <g> But some years ago, some clients wanted me to make them some big entertainment sized cabs out of some walnut grown on their family property. Evidently, from what I have been told by the local sawmill, the walnut was not in a grove of trees, but standing by itself and developed the "shake" syndrome. Man, I didn't see it until I started to cut the boards up. What a disaster. Most of it was just firewood. Beautiful walnut, but there's no way to fix that problem.

So Bruce, I shall have my nose sensor on next time I cut anything that I've been told is DF. I can smell a lot of woods when cut from 50 feet away, but I'll have to be more alert to that. By the way, can you smell the diff between red, sitka, engleman- any of the spruce's? I've not paid attention closely. Thanks.

[Spruce]

"By the way, can you smell the diff between red, sitka, engleman- any of the spruce's? "

What a great question...

I think I can, but I wouldn't want to bet the farm on it...

I think Sitka smells the most distinctive and different, but because I can ID it in other ways I haven't needed to depend on my nose...

Anyone else?
Love to know if anyone else has tried to ID spruce via their sniffer...

I do know that if the taste of the pitch in a pitch pocket is a dead-wringer for Dentyne chewing gum, it's Red. #They used to make chewing gum from the pitch...

But I wouldn't advise it if it's Engelmann, 'cause it will ruin your day...

[Dale Ludewig]

I do know that if the taste of the pitch in a pitch pocket is a dead-wringer for Dentyne chewing gum, it's Red. They used to make chewing gum from the pitch...

Are you serious? That's a hoot. Of course, I'm sure there's other products with backgrounds we'd just as well not know about.

[Spruce]

Here ya go, Dale....

I've broken off large globules of Red Spruce sap and tucked them between cheek and gum, and had them turn into a wonderful purplish chewing gum with oodles of flavor....

I've also tried it with Engelmann and thought I was gonna lose my upper colon after it disolved my lower palate....
Not a good thing at all...

[Dale Ludewig]

Ok, I just went to that link. I don't know what to say.! I'm getting light-headed just thinking about it all. Where do you find this stuff on the net? I- yai-yai! By the way, I've already bookmarked that site and shall soon go back and waste a whole bunch of time there. Thanks a lot!

[sunburst]

John, how did you get a refrigerator magnet to stick to that board? Is there a lot of iron in it?

Must be why it's so hard.

Dale, that walnut might have been lightning struck. Open grown trees are in more danger of it.
I've sawed walnut trees that had been hit by lightning and one whole side was split, under the bark, into 2 or 3 inch squares and various shapes. I've heard of lightning-killed walnuts shattering into tooth picks when they hit the ground after being cut.