What if?

[DataNick]

This post from a different thread has elicited many conflicting emotions within me:

A Loar ('24, with a Virzi) was recently purchased for 20 bucks at a California flea market...
...and no, I'm not kidding.

WHY?

Because I am now officially in the ranks of starving musician, having fallen from the grace of IT Analyst and having been forced to take 2 part-time jobs at a local AutoZone, and a gas station mini-mart.

Apparently the possibility of happening upon a Loar still exists, so I am conflicted with my hypothetical response. In my present financial situation a Loar would certainly solve just about all my problems, even selling one at a bargain basement price. Would I do that and buy a Gil, Nugget, Red Diamond or a real good 20s Fern or 30s F5 or would I stubbornly try to ride out the present financial hole and hold on to the Loar.

There's no bad answer, if you feel like sharing, I'm curious what you'd do.

I'm a pretty stubborn guy so I'm leaning in the direction of keeping it if I was the lucky chap to happen upon one at a flea market.

As always, YMMV

[fscotte]

Uh... riiiight.

I'd be hard pressed believe that happened. $20 for anything old with the name Gibson is far fetched.

[jaycat]

The only thing I've ever found for $20 at a flea market was a beat-up Hagstrom electric guitar that wouldn't stay in tune and had more knobs and switches than a flying saucer.

PS - sorry to hear about the job loss.

[DataNick]

I know Bruce personally, and I really don't think he's lying; especially when he emphasized ..."I'm not kidding"

[guidoStow]

Sorry about your change in circumstances. I hope things go your way soon!

[DataNick]

Sorry about your change in circumstances. I hope things go your way soon!

No worries! There's a lot of folks worse off than I am; and in a weird sort of way, I'm kinda OK with being in the ranks of financially struggling musician...kinda adds authenticity to my craft...I don't expect this to last too long...

But the bigger question I'd still like to hear opinions on, is would you keep the Loar?

[Upis Land]

My opinion?.... who has time to scrounge through the landfill fodder of flea markets. If you really buy into that type of lottery mentality, then you can just waste your money on lottery tickets. Better the satisfaction of having something of value that you know you earned.

But if I did happen upon a Loar I would feel through the decision then. 'Cause really there is no way to know how you would handle the situation until it becomes real.

So yeah, I would keep it.

[V70416]

"From my cold,dead hands"...

[FLATROCK HILL]

Hi Nick, As I'm sure you noticed in that other thread, I'm curious about the details of that story. Certainly not questioning the honesty of Spruce/Bruce. Without knowing the details of the real story, only the scenario I've imagined in my own head, I have given it some thought.

First of all, I'l like to think I'd be decent enough not to take unfair advantage of a private seller, you know...the little old lady who finds a L.L. in the closet. In the case of a flea market however, I'd say all bets are off. Sellers in that situation should know what they're selling. If they don't, shame on them. The mere mention of the fact that the item might be slightly under priced might lead to the seller having second thoughts about the sale. Also, in the flea market situation, you either snooze or you lose. So, I guess I'd buy and keep quiet. Maybe be generous to the seller later on, after the deal is final and the dust has settled.

Then Nick, I'd take my sweet time deciding whether to keep it or sell it for the reasons you mentioned above. I've been in your situation a time or two. Things will work out. The last thing yould want to do is regret some hasty decision.

Good luck and best wishes with everything...including that flea market find!

Clark

[mtm]

jobs come and go... a 24 Loar? Not so much...

[NursingDaBlues]

First of all, I commend you for grabbing hold of your boot straps and doing what you have to do to support yourself. (And don’t worry. I’m not going to hijack this thread to editorialize on what I think of people who would rather not work at all than take a job that is “beneath them.”) I wish you luck and success in finding the vocation that you truly desire.

Now, on to your question: If I were to be in possession of a flea-market find Loar, I would do everything to keep it…unless my family needed to be fed, I was in danger of losing my home, or a loved one needed some type of medical treatment, and my musicianship just wasn’t sufficient to take care of expenses of this nature.

Why try to keep it? Because, for me, an LL is iconic. Right, wrong, or indifferent, it’s the mandolin that Bill Monroe chose to play and create mandolin history. It’s the mandolin that set the standard for all the other F5 designs to this day. It’s the instrument that stimulated modern day interest in mandolins –if nothing else through the well-known artists that play an LL F5 and its successors. And in a roundabout way, it’s what brought me into the mandolin fold. I’d love to have that kind of history in my hands every day.

[dhergert]

Yes, very sorry to hear about the job misfortune Nick. Are you looking elsewhere for work more consistent with your career path yet?

Regarding the $20 Loar... Having spent some time in my naive young adulthood in the '70s with a very aggressive instrument bargain hunter, I tend to feel sorry for the storied folks who sold this particular instrument for $20. I'd like to think there's a way to deal with this kind of thing that is more fair and equitable to both the seller and the buyer. And just because it is being sold at a flea market doesn't mean the seller isn't grandma whose hubby left it for her under their bed.

I may not be able to pay full market value for something like this, but I'd like to pay enough so when the seller realizes what they had, they don't feel like they got cheated.

Can you imagine how you would feel having something worth $200K in your junk pile and selling it for $20? I've seen the faces of people who have had that happen, it isn't pretty.

These days, more likely what I'd end up doing if I fell upon some seller with an item like this, is to let them know what they really have, and try to line them up with a fully qualified buyer who could pay the seller what the item is really worth. That way I could walk away without feeling guilty.

That's just me, I'm not trying to set any guidelines here.

[JeffD]

I would never keep the Loar. Assuming it was not compromised and sounded good, I would play it for many months and take tons of pictures, but I would sell it at the first opportunity. I would then buy a couple of highest end mandolins from modern makers, and with the rest of the money buy a small country.

I don't want to own anything with that much publicized value. I don't want to worry about theft, or damage, or even normal wear. I would have this big sigh of relief every time I put it back in its humidity controlled lock box.

The only thing that kind of makes sense is to keep it, insure it to the hilt, and rent it out to first class musicians on tour or recording. I would get to meet a lot of great musicians who I wouldn't otherwise, and if I planned it right, the money would cover the insurance, routine maintenance, and other costs and maybe even make a little profit for my efforts.

[T.D.Nydn]

I'd sell it in a heartbeat....

[Beanzy]

Well I'd never dream of buying one at the kind of price they seem to sell at nowadays, but I'd probably stretch to $20 to see what it's like :D
I'd play it for long enough to get used to it, then decide if I liked it more than what the money could deliver.
It takes time for me to really find out the ins and outs of an instrument.

[Steve Ostrander]

Geez, I'd be tickled to find a Strad-O-Lin at a flea market for $20....

[Tobin]

I'd keep the Loar and play it, unless I just had to sell it to put food in my mouth or keep a roof over my head.

I think that over time it would just be a mandolin. People tend to glamorize these things when talking about them from a distance, but if you owned one, it wouldn't take long before you realize it's just a mandolin. You won't be mobbed by hordes of attractive young women when you leave the house with it, and you won't have paparazzi hanging around waiting to take your photo. It won't glow and produce the sound of singing angels when you open the case. Your neighbors likely won't know or even care about your high-dollar mandolin. Even the folks you play with will eventually get used to it.

For obvious reasons, you'd want to be careful as to where you take it, what you do with it, how you store it, and so forth. But it's an instrument that's meant to be played, and if you like the sound of it, there's no reason not to do so.

[NursingDaBlues]

You won't be mobbed by hordes of attractive young women when you leave the house with it, and you won't have paparazzi hanging around waiting to take your photo. It won't glow and produce the sound of singing angels when you open the case.

Darn.

[Bill Snyder]

I would sell it and share the proceeds.

[sgarrity]

I'd keep it and play the heck out of it but I'd have given them $100!

[JeffD]

You won't be mobbed by hordes of attractive young women when you leave the house with it, and you won't have paparazzi hanging around waiting to take your photo. .

Having a Loar will stop all that? Then I would definitely sell it.

[Spruce]

I wish it would have happened to you, Nick...

Meanwhile, I'm a little uncomfortable for bringing it up, as it ain't my deal...
But I'm sure we'll all hear the story in due time...

[Mark Gunter]

No way to be sure how that would play out, Nick, but my first thought is to sell it, buy a couple really nice instruments, and invest the balance elsewhere. But I really like Jeff's idea of renting it out.

All the best to you, Nick.

[Jeff Mando]

From my perspective.......
I have spent most of my life searching for collectibles/antiques/rare stuff/instruments......because I think it is fun, a good way to kill time, and usually the stuff I buy is worth more than I pay for it and even if I wholesale something, I am still making a profit. I think the first record price guide came out when I was 14 or so, picture a time before the internet, also picture listings of records with print much smaller than the newspaper or even a bible.....I think I all but memorized that price guide. Why records?, well, compared to instruments, you can almost daily find a record for 25 cents that is worth $100 or so. It is almost impossible to find instruments with that same rate of gain. My first mega-score was an Elvis promotional 45 that was in the price guide for $700 and I found it at the local Goodwill for 15 cents. Well, buying and selling are two different things, and I didn't get $700 for it, but I DID get $140 for it. Well, I was hooked..............

Over the years I have found countless items that I quickly resold to pay the rent, etc. Probably sold quickly so I wouldn't have a chance to bond with them, and also because the fun for me was the search, not the selling. And, being a person a average means, I had to keep what money I had in circulation. Keep in mind, to do that you have to work on it daily with extreme focus. To this day, if I run to Walmart, I will stop at 5 pawn shops, a music store, a thrift store and a flea market on the way, you know, multi-tasking. Fast forward 45-50 years and while I did great, I never got the big score that would set me up for life! I was always hoping through connections, etc., I would "find" a house priced for a song.........I found many "maybe" type deals, but never the one. When it came to buying a house, I paid retail, like everybody else. Disappointing, IMHO. Nice house, though.

OK, here's my take on the flea market. It represents a "series of filters" that an item must go through before it is offered for sale to the public. As mentioned before, the Gibson name is a pretty good filter that even most non-musicians have heard of. Let's say the flea market seller was inexperienced and never heard of a Gibson, highly unlikely, but let's say. Let's say he bought the mandolin at an auction. Another filter for the item to pass through. First, the auctioneer is certainly experienced and would know brand names, the chance of an auctioneer never hearing of a Gibson is probably about zero, IMHO. Second, the audience at the auction is another larger filter, what are the odds, that even if some of them had heard of a Gibson, that it would go cheap? OK, the flea market seller wins the auction and takes it to the flea market to resell. WHAT IS THE FIRST THING HE IS GOING TO DO? He is going to look it up on eBay or the internet to get a price, right? Would a search tell him ANY Gibson F-5 is worth only $20? No, of course not. So, not to say it doesn't happen, but it is unlikely he would sell it that cheap, unless he was not motivated by normal healthy human greed! OK, let's say he didn't buy it at an auction. He got it at a yard sale. Another filter would be the person selling it would remember how much they paid for it originally and how dear it was. Assuming, he sold it for $20, he would have to buy it for LESS THAN $20 at the yard sale, again an unlikely scenario. Other options are he found it on the side of the road, for free. Again, unlikely. A co-worker gave it to him. Possible. It was in his family. Again, possible. I do believe Spruce and I believe that weird, unlikely things do happen -- in fact, I live for those moments!

While I never found anything as great as a Loar, I have basically made a living flipping instruments and collectibles. I found a limited edition Elvis model tribute guitar at a pawn shop for $100 and sold it on eBay for $2500. I found a Haynes silver flute at a flea market for $35 and sold it for $3200. I found a rare rockabilly 45 for a dime and sold it for $1600. (I say a dime, because I bought a box of 300 for $10 and it was in there, along with several other $100 records!) So, it happens, but you have to work at it. I have bought many, many instruments for $1000-2000 and doubled my money on them, but somehow that just isn't as much fun as getting something for pennies on the dollar, at least in my way of thinking. When I was in college there was a pawn shop on the road to my parents, and I can't tell you how many times I bought a $100 guitar there and later resold it for $250-300. Again, you have to work it pretty hard. It becomes what you do. I also have told myself, EVERYTIME I get a great deal, it makes it that much harder to find one at that price again. Just common sense.

What would I do with a Loar? I would play it for a month, then remind myself I'll never be a Thile or Monroe, and sell it having known that I got to briefly own a cool thing! Again, this is me at my age. The money would go into a retirement account. Now, if I was 20 and just starting my "so-called career" in music all over again, I would keep the Loar! No doubt about it.

I'm like you, Nick those stories are frustrating to hear. And, I'm saying that as a person who has spent a lifetime trying to be at the right place at the right time. But, I'm thinking there is a 99.9 percent chance that the $20 flea market Loar will come up for sale again, no, not for $20, but at current retail and probably offered by one of the advertisers here.

Good luck with everything, Nick!

[MikeZito]

I think JeffD began to hit the nail on the head . . . the real question is 'What kind of condition is the Loar in?'

About 10 years ago the music store across the street from where I work (yes, it is VERY dangerous to your bank account to have a music store directly across the street from where you work), got in a Loar A-style mandolin. Naturally, I had to run over there as fast as I possibly could to see and play the thing. To be concise - it was a piece of junk! It played like a beast, even at the first few frets. The price on the mandolin was astonishingly low, but I have no doubt that it would have cost a small fortune to have it restored. I actually did consider selling some stuff to buy it, and using it as a display piece, just to say that I had a 'Loar' - but quickly thought otherwise . . . especially since it was essentially unplayable. Needless to say, the mandolin was gone the very next day.

So, the long answer to the short question is - yes, I would keep the Loar (even if it was a junker) until things got to the point that I absolutely HAD to sell it.

About 3 or 4 years after that incident, I did get to play a Loar f-5 (that formerly belonged to New England bluegrass legend Joe Val) and it was sweet. That was my last brush with a Loar . . .