In Praise of the F5

[T.D.Nydn]

The first time I saw an F model,,I said to myself,,,that's the coolest instrument I've ever seen...and I still think that..

[allenhopkins]

I think the scroll was lifted from a cinnamon bun and Allen, you forgot U for Harp guitar...Allen, there were others that thought Gibson had used the Florentine thing in some catalogs but nobody has found it yet. I just don't buy it that Orville had that in mind. I think the missing letters were probably designs that didn't make the cut. What letter designation was the Lyre mandolin? If there was an A and an F what the heck was that one?

Yeah, and I also left out "K" = "Kolossal big mandolin, better known as mandocello."

Mandolin Archive lists the Gibson lyre mandolin as "no model," and I gather these were close to "one-ofs" and not cataloged or marketed (other than on those early "Orville" labels."

I'd love to know what Orville G's B, C, D, and E models were -- all the ones between A and F.

By the way, I share Bill K's love for the F-model silhouette, and do understand why it's become so ubiquitous, when there's almost certainly no acoustic reason for that popularity. Orville G sure hit upon an attractive body style, not "Florentine" but certainly ornate and nearly rococo, that has seized the imagination of mandolinists ever since. The more utilitarian A-model profile represents "more bang for the buck," but there's still something about the scroll-and-points body shape that appeals broadly.

Interesting, though, that Gibson's attempts to do similar ornamentation on guitar bodies never really caught on, and that while "acoustical engineer" Lloyd Loar kept the F-model profile for his mandolin innovations, he utilized simpler silhouettes for mandola, mandocello, and guitar. And, finally, Gibson's failure to trademark the F-model silhouette has to be one of their worst decisions, when you consider the thousands of F-model mandolins made by other makers. What if each of them had to pay Gibson to license the design? What if Gibson collected $50 for every F-model anyone else made? Gibson pursues other makers for "poaching" bell-shaped truss rod covers and "open book" headstocks, but you can build a mandolin that looks just like a Gibson F-5 with impunity.

Or, if you prefer, with spruce, maple, and mahogany...

[Br1ck]

Cinnamon bun, or escargot? I've heard both stories.

[Tobin]

Interesting, though, that Gibson's attempts to do similar ornamentation on guitar bodies never really caught on, and that while "acoustical engineer" Lloyd Loar kept the F-model profile for his mandolin innovations, he utilized simpler silhouettes for mandola, mandocello, and guitar.

Actually, he utilized the F5 shape for mandolas. There are Loar-signed H5 mandolas out there.

[TheGrayFox]

beautiful mando, op!

[DavidKOS]

Well, at least they didn't call it a little guitar.

Because of the tuning.

THe F hole "set" of instruments sounds like a family in to itself.

[Jim Garber]

Thanks. "Calace," RW92 - Medium mandolin strings by Dogal - Carbon steel, Round wound, Hand made. Don't know if they're available in the US but they're the absolute best - long lasting, subtle and punchy at the same time.

Bernunzio carries them even the Dolce (for vintage bowlbacks - RW92b) Dogal Strings @ Bernunzio

[dhergert]

I was finally able to locate these among my catalog archives.

Maybe these would be of interest in this discussion...

[Graham McDonald]

Yeah, and I also left out "K" = "Kolossal big mandolin, better known as mandocello."

Mandolin Archive lists the Gibson lyre mandolin as "no model," and I gather these were close to "one-ofs" and not cataloged or marketed (other than on those early "Orville" labels."

I'd love to know what Orville G's B, C, D, and E models were -- all the ones between A and F.

B

Orville never used the A or F (or H or K or any other letter) to describe his instruments. They were an invention of the Gibson Mandolin Guitar Manufacturing Co around 1903-4. Let us not try to perpetuate too many myths

[Ivan Kelsall]

Going back to the 1960's,when i first saw a photo. of a Gibson F5 mandolin ( i had a Gibson catalogue of that period), i thought that it was simply the most beautiful instrument i'd ever seen, I still think that of the 'F' style,& i find the 'A' style also has it's own beauty. It wasn't too long after that, i first saw the name 'Florentine' attached to the 'F' style design & i thought that was 'fact',now we've all come to realise that the A's / F's etc. were nothing more that a numbering (lettering ?) system used in the Gibson catalogues.

IMHO - the design of the "F" style mandolin has to be one of the all time 'classic' designs in any genre - stunning !!
Ivan

[billkilpatrick]

Sienese, actually ... (you heard it here first.)

[sblock]

... And, finally, Gibson's failure to trademark the F-model silhouette has to be one of their worst decisions, when you consider the thousands of F-model mandolins made by other makers. What if each of them had to pay Gibson to license the design? What if Gibson collected $50 for every F-model anyone else made? Gibson pursues other makers for "poaching" bell-shaped truss rod covers and "open book" headstocks, but you can build a mandolin that looks just like a Gibson F-5 with impunity.

Or, if you prefer, with spruce, maple, and mahogany...

Here, Allen H poses an intriguing hypothetical. If Gibson had originally made the business decision -- which surely never occurred to them! -- to trademark its ornate 'F' design, with the famous scroll and points, and to charge others for the use of it, it might have gone one of two ways. Yes, it might have raised a fortune in royalties for Gibson, as Allen's post suggests. But it also might have discouraged others from copying the design, and thereby stifled the competition. This might have led to a flourishing of different carved body designs, including two points and other shapes. Of course, which way it might have gone would have depended on how much Gibson actually decided to charge, and how hard they might have made it for others to make similar instruments. Instead, with the F5 design essentially available in the public domain, we've enjoyed well over a half century of Gibson F5 Loar copies, and a great deal of further development of the F5 sound/design by such great luthiers as Gilchrist, Monteleone, Nugget, Dudenbostel, Ellis, McRostie, and others. These incredibly talented people have done as much or more to promote and advance the sound of the F5 than Gibson, I would argue!

In truth, the legal protections bestowed by copyright, patent, and trademark do not always lead to the best types of innovation and improvement. Who knows what might have happened if Gibson had decided to trademark the F5? We lovers of the F5 might have been the poorer for it! Or, we might have learned to embrace other, perhaps even better-sounding, mandolin body shapes. Hypothetical history is hard to reconstruct...

[allenhopkins]

Orville never used the A or F (or H or K or any other letter) to describe his instruments. They were an invention of the Gibson Mandolin Guitar Manufacturing Co around 1903-4. Let us not try to perpetuate too many myths.

Sorry to be somewhat unspecific in my language.

According to the Mandolin Archive, the term "Style F" with no number suffix, appeared in the earliest Gibson catalogs -- which came out when Orville was still employed by Gibson. At that point, as you correctly state, he was not the sole designer, nor the builder, of Gibson mandolins, so the decision to designate certain models as "A," "F" etc. was not his, or at least not his alone.

I'd still like to know what the B, C, D and E models were, whether designated by Orville Gibson, the company management, or whomever.

[Ivan Kelsall]

I wonder about the popularity of the "F" style without Bill Monroe's input ?. Judging by what i've read regarding the popularity of any make of mandolin at one point in time,it wasn't a popular instrument. It had it's day like the Tenor banjo & it passed.
Other musicians did play an "F" style,but it wasn't until BM came along & folk began to hear 'his' brand of music,that the mandolin came to a revived prominence,
Ivan