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Thread: Condenser Mic Comparison.

  1. #1
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    Default Condenser Mic Comparison.

    I came across this video
    when I was researching the t.bone Ovid, the interesting thing for me is that he uses a guitar, a mandolin and a fiddle and different mics seemed to suit different instruments.

    Still no nearer what to buy though, I like the idea of the Ovid and the Superlux PRA-383 , but how do I attach them to the bowl back? Suction cup? On the other hand will I ever want or need to?
    - Jeremy

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    poor excuse for anything Charlieshafer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Condenser Mic Comparison.

    Hmmm. I have to say, my favorite reasonably priced mic for both guitars and mandolins is a stand-mounted "pencil" condenser. I can move it around to suit the player and the location. While clip-ons are nice, and I really like the DPA, that's $700, and I've no idea how to do it with a bowl back. The mic I do use is $150, an Avantone CK-1. Apparently, a lot of the musicians I mic like it too, as they take pictures of it so they can grab their own. It's durable enough for live use, which is what I use it for. If it's recording studio use you're after, that's a whole other can of works.

    Hope it helps...

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    Registered User Bruce Clausen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Condenser Mic Comparison.

    You're talking about miking a mandolin on stage? With a clip-on you're stuck with one level. The great advantage of a condenser mic on a stand is you can stand six feet away for rhythm and three for lead-- closer with a loud band, but you're probably not going to be fighting a loud drummer with your bowlback. Also, your same mic can be your voice mic if you're announcing, etc. I'd suggest you just try a few out.

    Same mic should also work well if you're thinking of recording.

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    Default Re: Condenser Mic Comparison.

    Bowl-backs are tricky to mic. Quite low volume output (compared to most mandolins) and using 'normal' clip-on mics is very difficult due to fixing issues. Normally played sitting down, right? In which case a small boom mounted mic should be fine. The other alternative a lav mic attached via clip to the edge of the soundhole - but these can pick up finger and handling noise due to lack of mechanical isolation.
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    Default Re: Condenser Mic Comparison.

    Thanks all, for melody work I think my Calace is probably my loudest mandolin -not much chop though It's not really for a recording studio, maybe some home recording but the main purpose for the mic would be more for the odd bit of stage work.

    I mostly play with a folk band, no drummer, but a lot of guitars, a couple of banjos, plus melodeons, fiddles, old uncle Tom Cobbley and all. For that I would like to use my flatback, ideally without losing it's brightness. The guitars and banjos don't get individual mics.

    I have an AKG D5, but seem to have to get very close to it, would a condenser let me put a bit more distance between mandolin and mic?
    - Jeremy

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  9. #6
    poor excuse for anything Charlieshafer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Condenser Mic Comparison.

    Yes, it would. It'll take a little experimentation on your end to get it just right. It's not hard, just have to mess with it. I would go with one of the small diaphragm condensers, though, as you have more control over the pickup field. There are a lot of good ones out there, and again, while I like the Avantone (quality/price/durability ratio) don't get too obsessive over it. yes, while different mics have different characteristics, when you go live, your sound will be the result of many other factors beyond one little microphone. There are the room acoustics, crown noise, speaker quality within the room, speaker placement within the room, all ranking much higher in importance in sound quality.

    The key is to find out the balance between the distance you find comfortable, the gain on the sound board (you don't want to have to set that too high, it'll pick up associated stage noise. We have no feedback issues, but you don't need the sound of shuffling feet, pick clicking, monitor sound causing time smear, all messing things up. So the balance between getting just your mandolin in the microphone vs. a comfortable distance is the key. You may find it gets easier when you experiment with not just the distance, but the angle at which you put your chair and the microphone helps, meaning if you can arrange the stage so the business end of the microphone is pointing away from as many other instruments on stage, that helps too.

    So the little pencil guys would seem to be ideal for you in this environment, and really, just go with one that's reviewed by a number of people and fits the budget. I don't know if Sweetwater ships to the U.K., but you can certainly use their site for their reviews, compare them with a few others, then come to the realization that so many mics now get good reviews, that if you stick with a brand name from a legitimate dealer, you'll be just fine.

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    Default Re: Condenser Mic Comparison.

    Australian Rode microphones, I'd expect those to be in UK, http://www.rode.com/

    M3 has a 9v battery power option*. + inside, where the battery goes, is a sensitivity switch..

    NT3 is also *dual source, Phantom or internal.. for the juice to charge the condenser .

    Of course housing the 9v Battery makes it bigger than the Phantom only powered mics..

    NT 5, 55, 6 (which puts the capsule on a cable attached to the rest of the electronics )

    they're no larger in diameter than the XLR cable end.



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    Default Re: Condenser Mic Comparison.

    Well, I just spent too much of my life that I won't get back reading reviews and listening to mics on Thomann and Youtube, obviously not a great way to tell, but maybe better than nothing. I pressed the button on a refurb Avantone, Yorkshire blood will out and we'll see what happens.
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    Registered User Bruce Clausen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Condenser Mic Comparison.

    Lots of good points here. I did quite a few gigs using an AKG C391 (the cardioid cartridge) in a band with banjo, guitar, accordion and bass. Putting yourself in the right position with respect to the other instruments and the speakers (especially any stage monitors) is the main issue. Then, as Charlie says, experiment with distance vs. board level.

    Any desire to play the Calace standing? You'd gain the advantage of being able to move in and out for level control. Gotta say I've never tried it myself though.

    Just saw you've bought now. Good luck with it!

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    Default Re: Condenser Mic Comparison.

    Any desire to play the Calace standing? You'd gain the advantage of being able to move in and out for level control. Gotta say I've never tried it myself though.
    I give it a go now and again at home, a square of grippy material helps. Not sure about live though, it would be a shame to drop it, maybe one of those straps that clips into the soundhole
    - Jeremy

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    Default Re: Condenser Mic Comparison.

    I have tested some Avantone's in the studio, but not live. The fact is that almost any decent SD condenser will get the job done (I use Shure SM94's, SM137's, SM81's and KSM 137's regularly, but have also used loads of others - Rode M3's, Blue Encore 300's, various AT models, etc.). Sound-wise, not huge amount in it over ever a very good PA... however, they do vary a lot in terms of pickup pattern, sensitivity, and off-axis rejection. That is where getting to know your chosen mic pays off. Finding the 'sweet spot' and making sure monitor spill is minimised. Get that right in rehearsal or soundcheck and keep notes.
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    Default Re: Condenser Mic Comparison.

    Listening to the test in the OP makes me realize how much more I have to learn about not just proper mic placement but also various levels settings on both the pre/audio interface and in the DAW. There seems to be a sweet spot in setting the gain between not enough signal and everything clipping. How does one get there? Is there a good "how to" thread on this aspect of home recording that I have missed in my various searches or should I start one?
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    Default Re: Condenser Mic Comparison.

    All good mixing boards have an LED on each channel to indicate clipping on the input, as well as a pad switch to attenuate a hot incoming signal. You want to play as loud as you will play and back the input signal off so your clipping indicator doesn't light up. Don't buy a board without the input clipping LED. My mics also have 10db pads.

    Do not set your master output untill all effects and EQ are set, as they all can add gain. I wouldn't worry too much about being too low on the channel faders and master volume, as long as you can get the volume you need.

    If you have to max your system to get the volume you need, you need a system with more headroom.

    Same goes for home recording, except your mixer will be a digital facsimile. I usually record at a moderate level and boost that in the software if needed. You almost don't need meters with digital. Your ears will immediately tell you if your incoming signal is too hot. Not like the old days of tape where you could saturate.
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  20. #14
    poor excuse for anything Charlieshafer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Condenser Mic Comparison.

    Quote Originally Posted by jasona View Post
    Listening to the test in the OP makes me realize how much more I have to learn about not just proper mic placement but also various levels settings on both the pre/audio interface and in the DAW. There seems to be a sweet spot in setting the gain between not enough signal and everything clipping. How does one get there? Is there a good "how to" thread on this aspect of home recording that I have missed in my various searches or should I start one?
    I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you just need to play. In live situations, I go for relatively high settings on the mains amplifier, just before you hear the audible hiss out for the speakers, and keep instrument gain as low as I can get away with based (here goes the vagueness) on how close the player likes to stand to the microphones, and how loudly they play. This allows me to keep all excess noise from the stage and monitors out of the picture. Even with the led indicator lights, it is possible to get clipping, so with a lower gain setting, I can usually avoid that. I have no problem telling a musician to stand closer to a microphone if there's a problem. Interestingly enough, the best of the best are great at listening and complying, and many pull out a small piece of tape to put no the floor to mark their spot.

    In the studio, it's the same concept, but different (what?). Most of the hard-core engineers I know will use a mic they like on a particular instrument, and then the placement is up to what the musicians and producers want to hear. Some go after that close-mixing sound, where you hear the pick hitting the string, and every tiny detail. Some go after more "air" where the mic could be several feet away, worrying less about fine detail, and trying for more of that ambient spacious room/air feeling. A number of producers of acoustic music I know are trying to get away from isolation recording, where each instrument is recorded separately. They'll mic the instruments at a slight distance, but also place the musicians so they do get a little bleed-through for each instrument into the different mics.

    So there you go, there's no good answer. One of our foreign artists brought along their record label rep for the tour, and it's a very highly respected label. Anyway, after the show the rep told us he thought our sound quality was as good as they've ever had for a live show with this band, and wanted to know what we did. I explained to him what the protocol was, and laughing, he said "well, that's the wrong way." He quickly followed up with, "you and I both know there's no right way, it's all in the results."

    So have fun experimenting.

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    Default Re: Condenser Mic Comparison.

    The Aventone arrived today and I wired it up to check that it worked. Very first impressions are that it will do the job, I tried it with my Hathway flat top and it sounded like my Hathway flat top that hasn't happened with a pickup.

    Now I need to go away and read up on sound engineering as there was instant feed back, probably not that surprising as the posh shed has a double glazed front and a big glass-doored bookcase across the back.
    - Jeremy

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  23. #16
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    Default Re: Condenser Mic Comparison.

    Yeah, somehow the sound was bouncing off the glass and back into the mic, or of the amp was facing towards you, just getting straight into the microphone. Try turning the gain on the mic down, and for volume, turing the amp up. Better yet, if this is just playing around live in a small room, try headphones, or at least turn the amp away from you, so what you hear is the reflected sound. If you can make a drawing of your set-up, and rough distances between things, scan it and post it, I'm sure a few folks here will have some input. A picture here will be helpful.

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    Default Re: Condenser Mic Comparison.

    Mics and pickups are far apart in "fidelity". As regards feedback, hard reflective surfaces are a real pain (we have to deal with them a lot out here in Spain, where you rarely see a carpet - it's all marble or tiled floors - and they don't 'do' curtains much either). It is a big difference from your "British Pub" with lots of wood, carpets, beamed ceilings, etc. Those can be very good acoustically. Try to work the mic as close as possible. That cuts down on the need for gain, also, loudest sound at the mic wins.
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    Default Re: Condenser Mic Comparison.

    I didn't mean to report the above post, unintended bounce.

    Thanks for the suggestions, I will have a bit more of a play, maybe in another room with carpet and curtains, I need to tidy up the office before I post pictures

    FWIW I am finding this guide quite useful :
    https://www.altoproaudio.com/documen...uide_final.pdf
    Last edited by derbex; Mar-24-2017 at 5:23am.
    - Jeremy

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