First attempt at a hand rub sunburst...

[Bluetickhound]

Here's my first attempt at a 100% hand rubbed 'burst, with apologies to Mr Condino... Had I attended his workshop I'n Knoxvegas this weekend I'm sure it would have turned out much better. The back I'm fairly happy with but the top.... Not so much...

[michaelcj]

I'd say that looks pretty darned GOOD! Gives me hope and some confidence when it is my turn.

If you haven't sealed it yet I assume you could do a bit more on the top, maybe bring the darker tones a bit more inboard and blend/fade the new transition???

Alcohol or water based stain??

Well done Mate!

[Bluetickhound]

I guess the thing that really bugs me is that the top doesn't come anywhere close to matching the back. I knew that spruce would take dye very differently than maple but sheesh....

[michaelcj]

Maybe a bit more of the "red" in the back…. not likely to lighten the top but darkening the back?

If you have some off cuts from the maple, you could stain it the way you did the back originally and after it dries do some experimenting with adding some color.

Still I'm betting that, even left as you have it now it's going to be quite attractive under finish.

[Mike Conner]

Yep, having tried a sunburst type dye application on my recent archtop guitar, I think you did really well! Is there any finish on the instrument in these photos? The color shift I got was expected in general terms, but I was still surprised by the final result. Great job and keep building!
//mike

[Bluetickhound]

No finish yet. I just finished the dye work about two hours ago and am going to wait a day or two to start the finishing process, which will be French polish.

I'm going to leave what I've got alone as far as trying to "fix" it as I've learned from cruel experience that the usual end result of such undertakings is disaster. The back/neck color was exactly the look I was going for but the top isn't. It's uneven, off-color and somewhat blotchy... Fortunately I have some scrap spruce to practice in for the H5 when it's time for color rolls around.

[MediumMando5722]

Apoligies nothing, that thing looks great! I dig the contrast, and that neck looks amazing.

[Skip Kelley]

Nicely done! I think it looks great!

[sunburst]

It will look better under finish.
In the process you have learned that curly maple is a piece of cake to 'burst, spruce is a PITA to burst. Looks fine to me.

[Clinton Johnson]

Nice job bluetick!

[Bluetickhound]

You can say that again, John... The maple was very forgiving but the spruce was a bear...

[Inklings]

Well done, sir. I would say both sides look good - I wouldn't sneer at it if someone handed it to me as an example of their efforts (knowing well the dire limitations of my own). Thanks for also commenting on what you've learned. You just saved a bunch of us some spruce!

[dschonbrun]

Nice job, great first effort... better than most. This takes practice.

Getting graduation is often easier if you go slowly, and use more than 3 stains. By mixing stains to get smaller gradations, you may find it easier to get smoother transitions. The other trick, is to cut your stain with water (assuming water based) and go slower in adding color... you can always add more, but you can't take it back once it's down. Painters call this "glazing"... where you use a very small amount of pigment in a large amount of solution. Given the color range you're working with, I wouldn't be surprised if you'd use 6 tints, and apply about 18-24 coats very very gradually, mixing the new glaze into the previous lighter layer to smooth the edge. Getting a smooth graduation is an art, and on a painting of small to medium size can often take me an hour or more to get just right. Hope that provides some insight.

[Bluetickhound]

It does, and I appreciate your advice. The spruce is completely different from the maple... It seems like I can move the dye around better on the harder wood but that soft spruce soaks it in and it really ain't going much of anywhere... I had thought that maybe using different dilutions of the three colors may help the overall effect blend better sonI'm glad to get some confirmation on that.

[Jacob Hagerty]

It does, and I appreciate your advice. The spruce is completely different from the maple... It seems like I can move the dye around better on the harder wood but that soft spruce soaks it in and it really ain't going much of anywhere... I had thought that maybe using different dilutions of the three colors may help the overall effect blend better sonI'm glad to get some confirmation on that.

I've found if you sand the spruce to a finer grit sandpaper it won't absorb as much and is more workable. It's all a learning experience. I also recently just finished my first hand rubbed sunburst...first mandolin for that matter. I practiced on some scrap spruce and maple I found at the hardware store. Keep in mind you're always your own worst critic. It looks great and rarly do people see both sides of the mandolin unless they are examining it.

[Clinton Johnson]

Jacob to what grit do you sand? Thanks

[dschonbrun]

I find a hint more sienna/red in the top tints helps you get close to the color on the back and sides.

Doing some practice on simple sheets of material that have been sanded but not carved may help. One other option is to test stain the underside of the top before gluing tonebars - it will provide a sense of how the colors will dry and won't be seen once you've closed the instrument.

[Bluetickhound]

Re-reading James Condino's article on the subject in American Luthierie I missed a tip that I will definitely try on subsequent instruments... It makes total sense now that I read it but moistening the top will help keep the dye "moveable", if that's the right word. Dry spruce soaks up dye like a sponge and it doesn't want to cooperate with efforts to blend it into lighter colors moving towards the center of the plate...

One thing is for sure... I have gotten a ton of valuable information from this experience and it will certainly make future instruments better, and that's all I could ever ask.

[Denny Gies]

Excellent first try. Keep it up.

[Timbofood]

Nothing I see as anything to apologize for, there is not way under the sun I would have been able to do anything close to that nice! First or tenth try! You are doing well! Congratulations, interested in how the finish ends up.
Strong work!

[fscotte]

I find using water allows me to smooth the transitions better. If there a dark line you can dab a small amount of water on a rag without stain. Water does take longer to dry to see how it'll look but I'm in no hurry.

[Clinchriver]

Re-reading James Condino's article on the subject in American Luthierie I missed a tip that I will definitely try on subsequent instruments... It makes total sense now that I read it but moistening the top will help keep the dye "moveable", if that's the right word. Dry spruce soaks up dye like a sponge and it doesn't want to cooperate with efforts to blend it into lighter colors moving towards the center of the plate...

One thing is for sure... I have gotten a ton of valuable information from this experience and it will certainly make future instruments better, and that's all I could ever ask.

James demonstrated this, and quite a bit of other information. one was how to find which color's work with your particular piece of wood.

Your back and neck look great, I probably would have tried airbrushing the front. I don't know if I'll ever crack the code to hand rubbed sunburst on spruce.

[Bluetickhound]

Roger that, Clinch...Injust finished session one of the French polish and the back/neck look even better but the top, unfortunately, looks worse. The blend on the maple is improved but the delineation between the colors on the spruce is even more noticeable than in the OP photo. I have a top shelf airbrush setup and will definitely be using it next time on the spruce until I can get the hang of it. I have a little scrap spruce but not nearly as much as I have scrap maple. I really enjoy the process of rubbing the color on but the idea of torching a top I have a bunch of hours invested in is too much for me to bear.... If I can get good enough with spruce I'll report back on what worked for me.

[sliebers]

That looks good, especially as a first attempt. I've found rubbing with the grain across the color transitions can help blend the areas together. Look at the Loars, a lot of the dark actually streaks into the lighter areas like it was pulled in towards the center.
Very true, spruce is not easy to stain. I had a lot of problems with aniline dyes blending. I switched to the metalized Transtint dyes and it worked much better for me.
You could tint some shellac and airbrush your outer dark areas to blend more if it bothers you on the front. Since you have shellac down already, it will be darker if you spray color on top. If done carefully and lightly, you can get a good blend into your transition areas. Of course, test it on scrap, but it might give you the look you want.

[j. condino]

Personally, I'm wayyyyyyyy more concerned about how an instrument sounds and plays than how it looks.

I've seen some of the first and very early mandolins and finishes done by some of the finest builders in the world and your first attempt looks a lot better than many of those came out. Folks laugh at me, but I practice on EVERYTHING. Any scrap of unfinished wood in the shop- my bandsaw tables are french polished, my neck cradles are sunburst, as are my 'dread' molds, my stratocaster neck jigs are burst, one of the pillars holding up the big glass wall is French polished, the kids toys get burst, anything that is not bolted down gets the remains of the shellac can or the waterbased colors or watch out when there is some color left in the bottom of the spraygun can. For years I have been trying to convince Mrs C. to let me sunburst all the kitchen cabinets. One of the doors in my shop is a six foot tall 'burst. Time in the saddle cures most things. The way to get great at doing sunbursts is to do a lot of sunbursts.

One thing that everyone forgets is if it is not going perfect, put it down. Let everything dry out, pick it up tomorrow, re-wet it and go again. You can buildup more color or wash out old color and occasionally when everything goes wrong, I'll add a tiny bit of beach to plain water and zap it all back to a plain white finish again for a blank canvas. Ask me sometime offline about putting on the wrong base color on a whole batch of mandolins back in the day when I worked for Kim as a youngling. I realized at about 3 in the morning that I did every one of them the wrong color, so I set an early alarm, snuck into the shop at about 6 am, washed out everything, put on the right color, and got it all cleaned up undetected just as the rest of the crew showed up to continue the process.

Put it all in perspective: It looks a heck of a lot better than the finish on this old F5 that Carter's has been trying to sell!

https://cartervintage.com/collection...nt=23455999299

When all else fails, think about where my avatar came from...

j.