the world is better off without bad ideas, good ideas are better off without the world
I recently saw this exact scenario on a friend's high end mando with EVO wire. I had never seen anything like it before, and was really surprised to see it on EVO, which for my playing style and chemistry is essentially indestructible. But he plays mando hard and says his perspiration is brutal on intruments, so I have to think that combo explains it.
I am wondering if the salty sweat causes the oxidation of the metals could it be that the strings act as a "sacrificial metal" to the electrolysis going on such that the stings take on the oxidation instead of the evo wire at that spot. So just beneath the strings is protected from that oxidation and the rest of the fret gets a bit ate up ?
No matter where I go, there I am...Unless I'm running a little late.
Just curious to hear our luthiers' opinions on whether stainless steel would wear better for someone with this skin chemistry. That was my earlier thought/post, but one of the posts poo poos that idea. Thankfully I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum...I can play strings for months, and have enough instruments that I can usually eek 6 months out of uncoated strings, 8-9 out of coated strings. With uncoateds I can get 3 months if I get on a kick and play an instrument almost exclusively. So, it really is just morbid curiosity...
Chuck
I'm starting to wonder if what is happening is like a battery. Acid, metal, oxidation, etc. Copper wires.
Dale Ludewig
http://www.ludewigmandolins.com
Not really looking to take it anywhere. Mostly just curious if anyone had the same wear show up in their shop.
While a few folks seem to be ready to give up on EVO, I think these are extremely rare occurrences. I've installed over three pounds of EVO and haven't had a single issue with it. This occurrence and Tom Ellis' report are the only two issues I've heard of. Not enough for me to give up on what I consider a great option for a long wearing fret. On another note, I've seen the situation Frank Ford describes on a vintage A-4, the result of nitric acid outgassing from deteriorating celluloid. The pickguard on the A-4 was a perfect vintage guard, but there was evidence in the case that the original had deteriorated. Most of the case lining above the guard was completely gone. I saw one A-4 case with a hole completely thru the lid!
Gremlins!..... seriously though(not really), OP tell that particular mando player to cut back on the acidic fatty foods and tobacco, coffee, tea and beer....wait what am I saying? Man that's job security for you every couple years! Lol
I would agree with Lynn, I don't think it's unique to EVO. As someone with a science background, I would guess it's more related to a variety of variables coming together: the player's body chemistry, tendency to sweat through their hands, playing location, metal particulate generation (if they press really hard, it could speed up the process) and a lack of drying the fretboard after use.
Sweat is mostly water, but it also includes some minerals, acids, and salts. The PH of sweat can vary, and be as low as 4.5.
If you took an acidic solution with a PH of 4.5, and placed it on a nickel silver fret material, or a copper-nickel-silver material, it would produce a patina eventually. The patina might come up faster if certain other minerals were present... powdered metal in particular. The friction of the strings and frets produces powdered metal, which gets distributed to the spaces between the strings on the frets and mixed with sweat and finger oils.
So here is a completely unproved theory, with zero data to support it, but some science that makes it at least reasonably plausible.
Players who sweat through their hands, have sweat with a fairly acidic Ph, and who wear their frets by pressing hard, may be at greater risk to see patina emerge on frets in between the strings at a faster rate than a typical player. Players using their instrument in a high humidity environment, and those who do not rub down their fretboards after playing, could also hasten the patina development.
Thoughts?
D
I have friend who has extremely agressive sweat and kills strings in minutes. (I never let him try my mandolins when they have fresh strings because of this - and when I let him, I wipe the strings with WD40 immediately or they will turn black) I will have to look closely next time he brings in his mandolin for a fretjob... but I never noticed that wear pattern - likely because he wears the nickel frets within a year and chemistry may need more time to show. I fretted on of his mandolins with SS and it showed no sign of wear whatsoever after almost two years.
Adrian
Heh, guys, that's a photo of me in my avatar. As I mentioned in another thread, I don't smile for photos. Not that I intentionally try to look scary, though! But if it would help "scare up" some decent music out of my instruments, I'll certainly work on it.
Keep that skillet good and greasy all the time!
Lynn, thanks for commenting from your experience. I have not had EVO yet but I intend to try it out when the time comes on my Kelley. This post could scare a guy off from that but as you say, it seems to be very rare considering how many instruments out there have been done. If it was common, nobody on this forum would touch the stuff.
Drew
2020 Northfield 4th Gen F5
2022 Northfield NFS-F5E
2019 Northfield Flat Top Octave
2021 Gold Tone Mando Cello
https://www.instagram.com/pilotdrew85
Agreed; EVO wire is my personal favorite and I've not seen anything like this after installing several pounds of it. I've had more issues with stainless wire than EVO. I'd still send it to John - I heard he has one of those fancy new Evo-lizers in the new shop that will fix it....
I know it sounds crazy, but has anyone actually called Jesscar, the manufacturer and asked them about it?????
Viva Evo!
This hasn't scared me off Evo. I've been through close to two lbs and this is the only real wear I've seen this quick.
Maybe instead of corrosive sweat, somebody had large fingers and very rough skin and "sanded" the frets down? The strings would have protected the frets under them. Just sort of kidding. Because it is fairly rare, perhaps we'll never know the real cause unless this person has created this problem on several instruments. I've seen this wear pattern on two guitars from the 1950s and a turn of the century bowl back mandolin. The mandolin fretboard showed similar wear as the frets. At the time, I thought the wear resulted from the ebony board being completely dried out and brittle. I don't know the metal composition of those old frets, but they are a lot harder than the current nickel alloy wire. I've been installing and playing EVO wire for a couple of years or more and haven't seen any wear that needed attention, even on mandos that are played for hours every day. It's good to see here how the EVO can wear.
the guitar player in my band of 20+ years was a mason..... his hands were always alkaline and he'd corrode strings after one gig... I don't recall his frets (on a strat and an ES335) being affected like that, however.
Maybe one way of getting some sort of answer,or at least,a very educated guess,would be to send a few of the removed frets to the makers of EVO Gold fret wire,Jescar in NY,for analysis ?. What could it hurt ??,
Ivan
Weber F-5 'Fern'.
Lebeda F-5 "Special".
Stelling Bellflower BANJO
Tokai - 'Tele-alike'.
Ellis DeLuxe "A" style.
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