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Thread: Collings/Webber action setup?

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    BillMc mando_noob's Avatar
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    Default Collings/Webber action setup?

    Does anyone know what the recommended action (gap between string and 12th fret) for Collings or Weber mandolins is?

    It seems that all of the more inexpensive mandolins have their action way too high. I have an Eastman MD505 and I'd like to dial this one in for close action but, of course, no buzzing.

    Any recommendations?

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    Default Re: Collings/Webber action setup?

    Bruce Weber recommends 1/16" for the G string at the 12th fret. The E string should be slightly lower.

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    Registered User sblock's Avatar
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    Default Re: Collings/Webber action setup?

    Quote Originally Posted by George R. Lane View Post
    Bruce Weber recommends 1/16" for the G string at the 12th fret. The E string should be slightly lower.
    Yes: 1/16 = 0.0625". Personally, I would recommend going just a little lower than Bruce's factory setting, which is (understandably) a bit on the conservative side. My Weber is quite happy with an action in the range of 0.050" to 0.055", with no buzzing. That's about 3/64", if you use those units. It's also 1.3 to 1.4 mm, if you use those units. And I tend to run just about the same action for all strings, E included.

    This setup will work fine on a mandolin equipped with a straight neck and fingerboard with perfectly even frets, and any medium-to-heavy weight strings (e.g., D'Addario J-74's or J-75's). Weber and Collings mandolins generally have these properties. If your Eastman mandolin has a squirrelly neck, or some uneven frets, or if you use lighter gauge strings, then you may require a slightly higher action. Just try it and see!

    The best recommendation I can possibly give is to keep lowering the action in tiny stages until you first encounter a problem (e.g., buzzing under heavy play), then back off just a bit until the problem disappears. There is no good reason NOT to have the action as low as possible on a mandolin, so far as I can tell. And I believe that great players like Chris Thile would tend to agree: he once referred to his own action -- proudly, but perhaps ironically -- as a "sissy-boy setup!" He was probably contrasting it with WSM's (infamous) "manly" action.
    Last edited by sblock; Mar-10-2017 at 2:18pm.

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    Default Re: Collings/Webber action setup?

    Quote Originally Posted by sblock View Post
    The best recommendation I can possibly give is to keep lowering the action in tiny stages until you first encounter a problem (e.g., buzzing under heavy play), then back off just a bit until the problem disappears. There is no good reason NOT to have the action as low as possible on a mandolin, so far as I can tell. And I believe that great players like Chris Thile would tend to agree: he once referred to his own action -- proudly, but perhaps ironically -- as a "sissy-boy setup!" He was probably contrasting it with WSM's (infamous) "manly" action.
    Thile more recently said he listened to recordings of when he referred to his "sissy boy action" and thought it sounded terrible, and had since raised it considerably. That's not to say low action doesn't work well for many, but there are benefits to raising it, as well.

    In the electric guitar world, it'll be trendy at different times to use hard or easy setups. Currently, low action with light strings is the thing. If you're a heavy picker and like to bend, it sounds like crap.
    Soliver arm rested and Tone-Garded Northfield Model M with D’Addario NB 11.5-41, picked with a Wegen Bluegrass 1.4

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    BillMc mando_noob's Avatar
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    Default Re: Collings/Webber action setup?

    Thanks, all. for your input. I realize that action is a personal thing, depending upon the quality of the mandolin, the personal taste of the musician, and the genre of music being played. Upon receipt, my Eastman was at .060 with action at the nut at about a wopping .022! I think I have a little work to do to dial it down somewhat while avoiding buzz. I have Rob's setup guide but I don't know if his recommendations are conservative or fairly loose. Again, I realize I have to find what *I* like. But I just need a good starting point from which to begin tweaking. I suspect that Webber and Collings set their mandos up for a good "bassline" from which they can make minor adjustments to their customer's liking.

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    Registered User sblock's Avatar
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    Default Re: Collings/Webber action setup?

    Well, if you have 0.060" at the twelfth fret, this is not especially high. In fact, you already have an acceptably low action, not a high one! Yes, you could bring it down a little, if you preferred, but not by a whole lot. Below about 0.050" and various things issues start to make for trouble. Yes, by all means, follow Rob Meldrum's guide.

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    Registered User sblock's Avatar
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    Default Re: Collings/Webber action setup?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Bowsman View Post

    ...That's not to say low action doesn't work well for many, but there are benefits to raising it, as well.
    I would like to know better what you really mean by the "benefits" of raising action. Practically by definition, the action is too low if some buzzing occurs when you play relatively loud/hard (for you). But raising the action beyond what is required to make this buzzing (under hard play) go away seems superfluous to me! I see no benefit whatsoever, myself. The tone does not improve for adjustments above this level. Maybe you just want to get some exercise to strengthen your grip?

  8. #8

    Default Re: Collings/Webber action setup?

    I run my Gallatin mandolin and Bridger mandola at 1/16" or just a bit higher. I think it sounds better, although it might make it a little less comfortable to play.

    Question -- in researching measuring that, I found some opinions that measured it with the G string depressed/capoed at the first fret. Other suggestions didn't mention anything about that. Not even sure it makes a lot of difference. How do most measure, depressed or open? Thanks. I measure mine open.

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    Registered User Mike Conner's Avatar
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    Default Re: Collings/Webber action setup?

    Quote Originally Posted by mando_noob View Post
    ...Upon receipt, my Eastman was at .060 with action at the nut at about a wopping .022!.
    Since you mentioned Weber, I recently posted some setup details in this thread that might give you some detail to supplement Rob's guide:
    http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...etailed-Photos

    Both mandolins finished up about 0.060" at the 12th fret. The height ends up pretty even across the strings - the G strings might be closer to 0.065". The action at the nut is just as critical to having a good feel and correct intonation.

    Your mandolin might have a radiused fretboard and that can make things look a little "off". Take your time, good light and support, and vary the viewing angles to check as you go.

    Let us know what you settled with.
    //mike

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    BillMc mando_noob's Avatar
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    Default Re: Collings/Webber action setup?

    It looks like, Woody, that most luthiers spec the action open, with no strings depressed. Relief (if done at all) requires depressing strings. Thanks, Mike, for that helpful information. I will probably go with measuring the nut action with the method you use. Using the feelers gauges on these tiny strings is difficult for me. I can't tell if I'm measuring actual clearance or spreading the strings slightly.
    Last edited by mando_noob; Mar-10-2017 at 9:26pm. Reason: grammar

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    Default Re: Collings/Webber action setup?

    Quote Originally Posted by sblock View Post
    I would like to know better what you really mean by the "benefits" of raising action. Practically by definition, the action is too low if some buzzing occurs when you play relatively loud/hard (for you). But raising the action beyond what is required to make this buzzing (under hard play) go away seems superfluous to me! I see no benefit whatsoever, myself. The tone does not improve for adjustments above this level. Maybe you just want to get some exercise to strengthen your grip?
    I disagree that the tone doesn't improve. Whether it's mandolin, electric guitar, or banjo, going a little higher than necessary sounds better to my ears. I play slide frequently, as well, so I'm used to the height from that.

    I'm not talking about crazy high, nothing that's going to affect intonation. I grew up listening to Stevie Ray Vaughan, so heavy strings and a heavy right hand are what I'm into.
    Soliver arm rested and Tone-Garded Northfield Model M with D’Addario NB 11.5-41, picked with a Wegen Bluegrass 1.4

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    Registered User Tavy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Collings/Webber action setup?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Bowsman View Post
    I disagree that the tone doesn't improve. Whether it's mandolin, electric guitar, or banjo, going a little higher than necessary sounds better to my ears. I play slide frequently, as well, so I'm used to the height from that.
    My inclination was to say "string action makes no difference as long as there's no buzzing", and if you play with a reasonably gentle right hand, that is actually true. However, if you dig deep and play super-loud and strong you can get a deadness of sound from too-low action that clears when you raise it just a little. Seems the frets can rob energy from the strings without actually going to full on buzz.

    Of course raising the action also changes the string break angle at both bridge and nut - if the instrument is correctly designed this should really make no difference (as in: the angles are "ideal" when the instrument is correctly set up), but I can see some folks simply preferring the sound they get from a higher break angle.

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    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Collings/Webber action setup?

    I'd think that on most mandolins,that there's an 'optimum' string height for each = 'too low' & you'll loose the tone / 'too high' & it'll become a tad uneasy to play cleanly. I've found that with most mandolins that i've played where the sound isn't as good as i'd expect for the 'quality of build', that the action is too low. I remember playing a beautiful Collings "A" style some years back,where the owner proudly showed me that his pick which was only about 1mm thick, stayed stuck between the strings & the 12th fret. With an action that low,it had been robbed of almost all it's volume.

    The action on my Weber & Lebeda is probably a bit higher than most player's chosen height,but the tiny bit extra gives me quite a bit more volume,especially on the A / E strings,which,if too low, can sound way under-powered.
    My Ellis is just as it came 'used'. The action is slightly lower than my Weber & Lebeda,but it still has plenty of power,so i left it alone,
    Ivan
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    Registered User Tavy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Collings/Webber action setup?

    I think we've got away from the OP's original question, to whit:

    * 40thou - too low IMO.
    * 50thou - about optimal.
    * 60thou - factory default, and perfectly fine.
    * 80thou - too high for me, but perfectly playable.
    * 120thou - unplayable!

    Remember also that the nut and the truss rod come into this. I've had instruments come to me that were dialled in to 60thou at fret 12, but which had such high nuts that the strings actually got closer to the frets the further up the fretboard you went! The result was an instrument that was both impossible to play, and buzzed almost everywhere. In that case fixing the nut allowed the bridge to come up quite considerably, while still giving a low action and much better sound.

    Also if the truss rod is out of whack, the action can be fine at fret 12, but too high too quickly in the early frets, again often leading to buzzing and a hard to play instrument.

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    Registered User sblock's Avatar
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    Default Re: Collings/Webber action setup?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavy View Post
    I think we've got away from the OP's original question, to whit:

    * 40thou - too low IMO.
    * 50thou - about optimal.
    * 60thou - factory default, and perfectly fine.
    * 80thou - too high for me, but perfectly playable.
    * 120thou - unplayable!
    +1. Yup. I happen to agree with every one of these assessments. Furthermore, 50-55 thou that the 12th fret is just about right when the frets are level, there is little or no relief in the neck, and the nut heights are correctly adjusted.

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    Registered User mandobassman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Collings/Webber action setup?

    Quote Originally Posted by sblock View Post
    I would like to know better what you really mean by the "benefits" of raising action. Practically by definition, the action is too low if some buzzing occurs when you play relatively loud/hard (for you). But raising the action beyond what is reqi raised it back upuired to make this buzzing (under hard play) go away seems superfluous to me! I see no benefit whatsoever, myself. The tone does not improve for adjustments above this level. Maybe you just want to get some exercise to strengthen your grip?
    Not necessilary true. Much depends on the mandolin itself. I was dealing with some minor intonation issues for a long time and after making several adjustments to the bridge , I finally lowered the action quite a bit. While it did improve the intonation a bit, it was not enough to make too much difference. However, what really suffered was the tone. It lost a ton of bass response and volume suffered as well. I left it that way for a couple of weeks to see if I could get used to it but eventually I raised it back up. Now it sounds great again.
    One of the reasons many 1st and 2nd generation bluegrass mandolinists had the action so high was because they were playing through inefficient PA systems and needed every bit of volume they could get out of a mandolin. Not as much of a problem these days, but still, many mandolins just sound better with the action jacked up. Mine does.
    BTW, my action at the 12th is 2mm.
    Last edited by mandobassman; Mar-11-2017 at 7:35pm.
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