23' Loar at Norman's Rare Guitars

[Jeff Mando]

+1 on the Suburban, Timbo. You jogged the ol' memory banks for me -- me and my buddy took some of his college students to NYC to see the museums, etc. in a Suburban. 30 years ago and the gas was a little cheaper, but still, 8 of us total made the trip in comfort, 600 miles each way, no problem!

[f5loar]

If Bill Monroe had French polished his Loar back in 1951, right after he scraped off the "overspray" finish Gibson put on there without asking, would it have increased the value? NOT! But it might have looked better. As far as the Loar in the video looking so clean, I would question why only $150K and not $200K. I would need at least 2 experts to look at it with me being the 3rd.

[dhergert]

There is a notable difference though, between "collectable" and "collectable with unusual provenance".

Bill was already a famous musician by the time he scraped the logo off of his F5. So that instrument as it was had unusual provenance and as such, had it been frozen in time, would have been worth great sums of money today no matter what condition it was in. Fate and a former girlfriend changed all that though, such that now after Derrington rebuilt it -- and in doing so guaranteed Gibson's mandolin reputation into the future -- and after Bill welcomed it back into his hands, the instrument is literally priceless. I think even just the old original fingerboard which was saved from the burn barrel is or has been up for sale recently for remarkable amounts of money because it has provenance too.

Similarly, Earl's Mastertone has been changed in so many ways as to not be very original... The neck is a replacement, most or all of the remaining wood parts of the instrument have been refinished, most of the metal parts, notably with the exception of the tone ring, have been replaced. In today's market, had it not been that Earl played it routinely, its collectable value would be much below that of any other more original pre-war one-piece-flange 5-string flathead Granada in moderately good condition. But Earl poured his heart out through that banjo, and as such its value on the market would be amazing if it were for sale.

Contrast that with most of us mere mortals putting player's wear and tear on a valuable collectable instrument, I'm afraid that all we would do is reduce its value to collectors. It might be worth it to us as we enjoy playing such a treasure, but it would be at a cost.

[DataNick]

... Fate and a former girlfriend changed all that though,...

Watch it thar matey, careful who ye speak 'bout...

[Dobe]

I love the $150k price with "$65 shipping".

Talk about a deal breaker. I walk right away from that.

[CWRoyds]

Case looks equally clean. I should drive the 12 miles and kick the tires.

Yeah, I thought the same thing, but then I remembered that it is the rudest guitar store on the planet.
Personally, I don't think we have a rats chance in hell to get to play that mandolin.
Every time I go in there I get the feeling that I am offending them with my very presence.
God forbid you want to ask a question about an instrument.
If you get a response, it is usually condescending.

Having said that, Norm's has an absolutely un-freaking-believable collection of instruments for sale.
Probably my favorite music store in LA, in terms of instruments available.
No other store has so many good vintage guitars to choose from.
That is probably why they think they are God's guitar representatives on earth.

As much as I hate going there, I force myself to go every once in a while, so I can bask in the glow of all the old martins.
Amazing store, but absolutely the worst customer relations on the planet, bar none.

[Doug Freeman]

Yeah, I thought the same thing, but then I remembered that it is the rudest guitar store on the planet.

In all of Los Angeles I know of no other business so blatantly fixated on celebrity and wealth. If you don't have one, the other, or both you are not welcome there.

On the other hand, even though he's not a mandolin guy, for decades he has consistently turned up instruments of that caliber and condition, so there is no reason to doubt it's the real deal.

[Jeff Mando]

FWIW, for years part of my job was attending most of the major vintage guitar shows and buying and selling, especially with the idea of bringing "fresh stuff" back home to the guitar store where I worked. Most of the dealers, will sit at their booth and wait for the customers to pass by and show what they brought to sell. Fairly low-key and friendly. OTOH, there are a few dealers who are much more aggressive, who want to buy every nice vintage guitar (or mandolin) that comes through the door without regard for letting someone else have a shot at something. They will wait by the front door, eyeing the guitar cases the customers are holding. It is called "sharking" the front door. There are several buyers who do this. Norm is one of those buyers. I don't know Norm well, but have talked to him at the shows. And, like you say, his shop has been famous for decades for having quality stuff.

[TC-in-NC]

Looks too shiny to me, but I'm far from an expert. I've been fortunate to play two, and have seen CT's live twice...none of them were that clean looking. Played one at Carter's and one at Lowe Vintage...both in excellent condition, but not that new looking...

I was at Lowe Vintage today....that '23 Loar is a thing of beauty!

http://www.lowevintage.com/products.php?id=105

[dhergert]

I worked for a year or so with a guy who used to scavenge instruments and who used to do instrument repairs for Norm's. This was in the late '70s. The guy I worked with is/was remarkably talented and experienced, also really nice with never any condescending behavior and he got along well with everyone I knew. And he had figured out how to get along with Norm and the people who worked in his store. So I got a brief insider view of how things were running at that time.

By the late '70s Norm's was already what I would consider an international magnet instrument store. One of the problems with being a store with that kind of notoriety is that everyone who has even the mildest interest in music will want to visit and look around, to handle and maybe play an instrument or two, just to say they've been there. Plus, the area of town where Norm's was/is located gets a lot of mixed street traffic, so there are people who come in just to get out of the heat or out of the rain or just to have a place to be. All of that puts the store staff in a hard position, since they're not only there to sell the instruments, but they're also there to protect them. And as has been discussed, the collection there is amazing. So store staff has to profile people based on how they look, so they can be prepared. And profiling is rarely fair.

I think people who want to visit Norm's should think of this store more like an exclusive jewelry store... Or maybe a Ferrari or Lamborghini dealership. In L.A.'s Wilshire district. These stores are in a very expensive environment selling very expensive, rare and often fragile items. The staff at these establishments aren't going to want to let you wear their jewelry or test drive their cars unless you can demonstrate both interest and ability to buy. And I think that's what people are going to encounter at Norm's.

To be fair, I have been in other instrument stores where the staff have demonstrated the same kind of attitudes as have been described at Norm's. But I've also been in places where a person is welcomed no matter how well known they are, or how big their bank account is, as long as they can demonstrate a respect for and an honest interest in the instruments. Like everyone else, I do prefer that kind of environment.

[allenhopkins]

...I think people who want to visit Norm's should think of this store more like an exclusive jewelry store... Or maybe a Ferrari or Lamborghini dealership. In L.A.'s Wilshire district. These stores are in a very expensive environment selling very expensive, rare and often fragile items...

Point taken (not that this East Coaster will ever visit Norm's) -- but it re-emphasizes F5Loar's question: why $150K and not $200K? Even with the fluctuations in the vintage instrument market, I'd have expected an authentic Loar in such spiffy condition, to list at a higher price.

[Canoedad]

Point taken (not that this East Coaster will ever visit Norm's) -- but it re-emphasizes F5Loar's question: why $150K and not $200K? Even with the fluctuations in the vintage instrument market, I'd have expected an authentic Loar in such spiffy condition, to list at a higher price.

What if the instrument is "all there" and it remains there?

[fscotte]

Just ask Norm why his Loar is any better than the 5 Loars at Carters.

[Timbofood]

Just ask Norm why his Loar is any better than the 5 Loars at Carters.

"Because it's in MY store!"

[Jim Garber]

Pardon my ignorance on this matter, but doesn't French polish differ from just applying instrument polish to an existing finish. Isn't French polish an actual finishing technique?

French polishing consists of applying many thin coats of shellac dissolved in alcohol using a rubbing pad lubricated with oil.

[MontanaMatt]

I'm perplexed by player wear...I have a 10 year old varnished Weber. I gig 100+ days a year, and have for the past 12 years. That plus practice is lots of hours "in the saddle". My finish is in great shape. Granted I have a tonegard, so no buckle rash. I've spilled beer and whiskey. Wacked into mics. Clunked my guitar players D28. Pick scratches? Are you emulating Pete Townsend?
Not trying to ruffle feathers, but is player wear another term for lack of control?
Cards on the table, I've had a few drinks tonight and feeling loose��
Not trying to hijack the tread, but just putting it out there.
I have a couple 100 year old Fiddles that are still original finish and sexy. Not ragged and worn.
Accidents happen, but player wear in my book sounds like bad technique and lack of control.
Thoughts?

[Josh Levine]

I'm perplexed by player wear...I have a 10 year old varnished Weber. I gig 100+ days a year, and have for the past 12 years. That plus practice is lots of hours "in the saddle". My finish is in great shape. Granted I have a tonegard, so no buckle rash. I've spilled beer and whiskey. Wacked into mics. Clunked my guitar players D28. Pick scratches? Are you emulating Pete Townsend?
Not trying to ruffle feathers, but is player wear another term for lack of control?
Cards on the table, I've had a few drinks tonight and feeling loose��
Not trying to hijack the tread, but just putting it out there.
I have a couple 100 year old Fiddles that are still original finish and sexy. Not ragged and worn.
Accidents happen, but player wear in my book sounds like bad technique and lack of control.
Thoughts?

Maybe you just have better technique than the players of the 1000s of guitars and mandolins with player wear. Who knows you could just be that good. Sam Bush and Bill Monroe could probably benefit from lessons from you since their mandolins are looking pretty ragged.

[MontanaMatt]

On cars we call them dents, and if you car is full of them people talk about you. Granted race car drivers crash, but they're racing. Bill and Sam are definitely race car drivers.

[MontanaMatt]

Maybe you just have better technique than the players of the 1000s of guitars and mandolins with player wear. Who knows you could just be that good. Sam Bush and Bill Monroe could probably benefit from lessons from you since their mandolins are looking pretty ragged.

Are you getting pick scratches on your new Duff?

[Josh Levine]

You betcha

[Josh Levine]

It has a pick guard and arm wrest, so those get most of the action. The arm wrest will leave a small mark in the finish, although I learned that is minor compared to imprints I put into the finish without one from the constant movement of my wrist. I am not careless with my instrument, but I intend to play it long and hard for many years, so I am not afraid to use it the way it was intended to be used. When you have something somewhat fragile, such as a varnish instrument, that gets used heavily every week it is bound to incur some small dings and scratches and such.

[Jim Garber]

I'm perplexed by player wear...
<snip>
Accidents happen, but player wear in my book sounds like bad technique and lack of control.
Thoughts?

Yeah, I know what you mean. No player wear here, for instance, that I can see here...

[MontanaMatt]

Jim, not nearly the relief of a mandolin, and Willie is high most all the time. Maybe we've hit upon it... player wear and intoxication?
Perhaps I should " lite"en up and scratch it up!

[pops1]

I have lots of playing wear, I try to be careful, but things happen. Sat. I was playing and bent over to reach something and the cord had wrapped around my mic stand and pulled it over, the mic hit the mandolin hard. Summers I play a boat cruise weekly. Waves will rock the boat, it's a tight space, things happen. I have worn most of the finish off my neck. It has been played alot and shows. I am sure some is the environment I play in, boats, barns outside, bars, whatever, again I try to be careful, but as a friend of mine says:

"poo poo happyon"

[allenhopkins]

...Not trying to ruffle feathers, but is player wear another term for lack of control?...

No.

...My finish is in great shape...I've spilled beer and whiskey. W[h]acked into mics. Clunked my guitar players D28...

You are lucky. And, the finish on a 10-year-old mandolin is not completely comparable with that on a 90-year-old one. The vicissitudes of taking instruments around to gigs and rehearsals, into and out of cases, on and off stands, on crowded stages, in freezing cold or midsummer heat, playing at high volume at times, can take their toll.

I play about 200 jobs a year, and have been gigging regularly for 16 years or so, part-time before that. I try to take care of all my instruments, but they show wear, which I don't attribute to "bad technique and lack of control."

Vigorous instrumental attack can scratch finish; frets and fretboards get worn from hours of use; "planting" fingers on the surface leaves marks (you should see my banjo head). Dings and dents occur, even when players are trying to be careful. Finishes crackle when instruments go from cold to hot, or vice versa.

Drive your car for a decade, then tell me it's "showroom new," even if you never have an accident. Tell me if your favorite chair looks the way it did in the furniture store, even if you've never spilled any of that whiskey on it, after you've used it for a few years. Are those shoes as shiny, five years later, as when you took 'em out of the store?

Congratulations on taking good care of your Weber, but don't dis other musicians whose mandolins show the effects of years of playing. And remember, Gibson got extra buxx for its "Distressed Master Model," with its factory-inflicted "wear," and Fender sells "Road Worn" new guitars for more than regular Strats. No shame attached to a bit of player wear, IMHO.