Playing cleanly above the 12th fret

[C. Welter]

Hi folks,
This question may very well have been asked here before, but I couldn't find anything that quite fit... So please forgive me if I'm digging up an old topic.

My question is for the folks that do a lot of playing above the 12th fret:

How do you play complete phrases cleanly up there (with good tone, sustain, etc) ?


I have no problem finding the notes that I want in that region, but I can't seem to get more than a dull plunky sound when I try to play them -regardless of how slow and deliberate I am with my fretting.

I am isolating two things that may be impeding me:

1. The fret spacing here is smaller than the width of my fingers and it takes some hunting around and rocking of my finger to find a "sweet spot" that will produce a clear note.

2. For the same reasons as in 1. my fingers rub against each other and prevent me from playing smoothly.

Do you guys have any special tips, tricks, or even secrets to help with this?

Thanks,
Corban

[JeffD]

I figured out I don't need to be able to play everything above the 12th fret that I play below the 12th fret. I figure that anything anyone does above the 12th fret well, is ummm... it is what they can do above the 12th fret well. Likely they can't do everything well up there, and of course they are not going to play the things they can't do well.

So if I am going up there I usually am doing something that is do-able, given the smaller spacing. Double stop tremolo works well and is kind of fun. As an example.

The other thing is that I violate some best practices that get in the way. So sometimes I might ignore the admonition to keep my fingers down, or violate the two frets per finger rule in favor of one or two fingers for the whole sojourn.

The third item is that in my arsenal I have a Weber Sopranino mandolin, which has a small spacing. And I play it a lot. So I get a lot of practice in tight spaces.

[guidoStow]

I used to have a Sopranino sax year ago but that is tiny!

[Tobin]

How do you play complete phrases cleanly up there (with good tone, sustain, etc) ?

My first recommendation would be to revise your expectations. I mean, playing cleanly is one thing, but don't expect the same tone or sustain above the 12th fret that you're going to get at lower frets. It just doesn't happen. At that short of a string length and that high a pitch, sustain is severely diminished by physics. Another thing to consider is that you're up over the neck heel and body join area, which I think plays into it too.

On the rare occasion that I find myself above the 12th fret for more than a few passing notes, I have found it helpful to adjust my picking hand. I will be a bit more firm with the pick strokes and make sure I'm not picking too close to the bridge. These always make a difference in tone and volume, but become more pronounced when playing higher notes.

At the end of the day, however, there's no magical formula. It just takes more precision to play with that closer fret spacing, and it requires a lot of practice. Fortunately, I have narrow fingertips and small fingers, so I probably don't struggle with it like folks with bigger fingers.

[Beanzy]

As a "fat-fingered Freddy" I can run up against this a lot on my narrow nut instruments so I bought a mandolin with a 33mm nut for the space across the neck, but I still need to be on tippy-toes for the fret spaces above about 15 or so.
I often fret with just the fingernails higher up than that, especially if on the solid courses
I got quite good at slipping fingers out of the way of each other. Normally it works ok as the finger to be moved has normally sounded its note and is just there for sustain so the main job is done. It's often a compromise though and sometimes the finger being fretted can mash down against the previous one, delaying its removal. :/

[T.D.Nydn]

Long,thin fingers and alot of practice...

[Tom Wright]

Virtuoso violinist Itzakh Perlman has the fattest fingers you've ever seen, and he does fine in the upper reaches. The trick is to get handy at fingers shoving each other out of the way. Of course this takes practice, and it is always harder than low positions.

One thing I do is try to finger almost on top the lower fret, so as to not damp the one I want to sound cleanly. An advantage that comes with practice is harder calluses, which aid clear tone up there.

All that said, I have no interest in playing above my highest fret, which is 17, the A above the octave E. That's plenty high.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Corban - I play above the 12th a lot when i'm improvising breaks in tunes,just for the difference in tone. As Tobin says,the 'sound' of the notes & sustain are different up there,so don't simply expect a 'higher noted' version of what you get down at the first position.

You need to learn to fret pretty accurately because of the closer frets & to press down a tad harder = practice doing it. The more that you 'do it',the more you'll be able to 'do it' - like most things,& well done for straying into what are for some players, ''unknown areas'',
Ivan

[Spruce]

I have the fattest fingers on the planet, and for some reason I can play clear ringing notes up there...
I look down and wonder "how the hell?" all the time...

...as far as "why", it's the best way to see what a mandolin has under the hood...
If it rings up there on the E-string in a pleasing way, it's a mandolin worth consideration tonally...

[C. Welter]

Thanks to everyone for all the enthusiastic and helpful replies!

[DavidKOS]

We can also access violin teaching methods for position playing:


http://www.fingerboardworkbookseries...htm?m=91&s=590

as high as 11th position

http://www.fingerboardworkbookseries...20Position.pdf

http://www.gonzaga.org/NetCommunity/Doent.Doc?id=435

[SincereCorgi]

This isn't a really a technique tip, but: a good mandolin really helps up high. A lot of otherwise good mandolins get weak around the octave and get worse fast.

[JeffD]

This isn't a really a technique tip, but: a good mandolin really helps up high. A lot of otherwise good mandolins get weak around the octave and get worse fast.

That is a good thought. Be sure the problem is not the mandolin.

[DavidKOS]

This isn't a really a technique tip, but: a good mandolin really helps up high. A lot of otherwise good mandolins get weak around the octave and get worse fast.

That is a good thought. Be sure the problem is not the mandolin.

And you have to have the extended fingerboard to get all the upper notes! Sorry you scoopers and Floridectomists.

[JeffD]

And you have to have the extended fingerboard to get all the upper notes! Sorry you scoopers and Floridectomists.

The nosebleed seats!

[Tobin]

And you have to have the extended fingerboard to get all the upper notes! Sorry you scoopers and Floridectomists.

Define "all" the upper notes. Even with your fretboard extension, I'm sure even yours is missing some.

[T.D.Nydn]

For bluegrass I rarely play past the 12th,,,but for jazz I go up there all the time,,it's how I get those high,"piano" type notes and sounds,,including chromatic lines and phrasing including also the g and d string past the 12th to the 17 or 18 plus,,at one point I was determined to master the entire fretboard,,it takes practice to get used to the fingerings and pressures you need to do it,aND get the pitches that you need,,it takes practicing up there more than anything,,but like it was said before,,a fine mandolin can produce very bell like piano tones...

[DavidKOS]

Define "all" the upper notes. Even with your fretboard extension, I'm sure even yours is missing some.

That particular mandolin is fretted up to A. It can play all the classical Italian solo literature. (I can't quite!)

I know a couple pieces end with the G 2 octaves above the 3rd fret 1st string G.

Any notes above that have to be faked with the fingernail trick.

[Beanzy]

.... and not just the notes that are written; you may want to play grace notes and ornaments up an octave for effect, or come from those higher frets to harmonics lower down to get tge contrast in sustain.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Spot on Eoin !!. If i'm improvising,i'll very often begin at the 'second position',work my way above the 12th fret & then come back down to the first position for the 'contrasting tones'. I don't have to do it,but those frets are there for a reason,so why not use them ?. It looks 'flashy' as well,
Ivan

[dhergert]

With the taropatch-C (GCEG) tuning that I use, playing above the 12th is almost mandatory especially for some classical and jazz pieces. The resonance and fullness of tone of the strings above there improves with the lower string tension of this tuning, although I also don't use standard A and E strings in this tuning. In general, except for the common G string, my string tension is about 80% of normal GDAE tuning with standard GDAE strings

That said, for standard GDAE tuning with standard strings, string tension is definitely part of the equation with resonance and tone above the 12th fret... In this tuning I'd suggest lighter gauge strings if you really want to improve this in the high register. You also may find a lighter or thinner bridge will improve things. But the trade-off will very likely be less volume, punch and depth of tone in the lower register.

What this really means is that for the most part with standard GDAE tuning/strings, mandolin tone above the 12th is expected to be not as resonant and full as in the lower register. Just as a piccolo is expected to be not as resonant and full as a flute.

Aside from string gauges and bridges, you may find that experimenting with different string types and even different picks provides an improvement on your playing in the higher register, perhaps without the trade-offs in the lower register.

[stevedenver]

I play up there a good deal.
As for a good mando....yes. But
My brentrup, with its stainless frets, slightly larger than my fern or ellis frets, is much harder to get a clean note. I think its the fret size. My gibby fern is a breeze, but has the tiny old style frets.

Yet my rigel a with its larger frets and radius plays easily to the 22nd fret.

There is a technique, to precisely use the finger pad. I dont get long clear open string-like sustain, but i do get a nice clear woody treble. I used to try fingernails and while a clean note, it gives a harsh plinky note compared to using the pad. I cannot play well above the 19th fret.


Up there i only use three fingers. And i have to look at what and where im fretting, unlike below the 12th, where i can feel easily. I imagine this is practice. Clean notes with speed are possible, with practice.

String type and gauge , along with fret size make a difference. Set up needs to be very good too for intonation.

Without equal are tomastik strings for high fret work. The are softer and the easiest to play, imho. I liken them to changing my mandos into a les paul fretless wonder. Lighter gauge will halp.

[Mark Gunter]

Check Marty Stuart at about 1:55 here, he goes on up about as far as he can go.

[J.Albert]

steve wrote above:
"I think its the fret size. My gibby fern is a breeze, but has the tiny old style frets."

I agree.

I've found that above the 7th/8th fret, a mandolin with "traditionally-sized" frets yields a slight edge at cleaner noting (even for a sloppy player like me!).

"More room between the frets for your fingers", one might say...