Martin Titanium Core strings?

[mcgroup53]

Anyone tried these new titanium core guitar strings from Martin? They'll be lighter than steel core strings, and last longer I guess. But what about sound?

I'm still angry Martin Strings won't release Retro mandolin strings, but I guess they'd rather I buy monel mandolin strings from Curt Mangan. <g>

[mandroid]

Yea Ti is lower on the periodic table than iron.. you are the 1st to discover & mention it,

so test and report, john Alden.

[Jim Garber]

Are these available for acoustic guitar yet? MF says May 5. Sounds like the price is up at around $40 per set? They better be good.

I have switched over to D'Addario NBs for mandolin and guitar. In the meantime...

[mandroid]

The pitch is related to vibrating length and tension, windings are added to increase the mass,
how does reducing the mass, (weight) help?

Any one with a Physics Degree out there?

[sblock]

The pitch is related to vibrating length and tension, windings are added to increase the mass,
how does reducing the mass, (weight) help?

Any one with a Physics Degree out there?

Your concern is warranted. The pitch of a string depends on these two things: (1) its tension and (2) its mass-per-unit-length (that is, the linear mass density). Now, the (volume) density of titanium is 4.5 gm/cm^3, whereas the density of steel is about 7.6 gm/cm^3 (it ranges from 7.5 to 8.0 gm/cm^3 for different types of steel). In other words, titanium is 1.7 times LESS dense. This means that a solid-core string made purely of titanium would need to be the square-root-of-(1.7) = 1.3 times thicker than a comparable steel string to have the same mass-per-unit-length, and therefore sound the same note at the same tension.

Of course, the lower strings (G and D) on a mandolin, and sometimes the A, are all wound. In a wound string, the core material (steel or titanium) supports all the tension, whereas the winding material (usually brass, bronze, nickel, etc.) supplies most of the mass-per-unit length. In the Martin titanium core strings, this wrapping is made from nickel, not titanium. Also, the unwound strings (A and E) are not made from titanium, either: these are made of stainless steel (Martin says this is "cryogenically treated stainless"). Not much different from the strings you currently use.

In summary, the cores of the wound strings are the only things with titanium in them in this set. I don't know what the actual core diameters are. They certainly don't need to be any thicker than steel cores, though, because titanium is about 3 times stronger than steel: the tensile strength of titanium is about 1500 mPa, compared with about 500 mPa for stainless steel. So the cores could be made thinner, in principle, without sacrificing strength. Maybe these wound strings break less often? But on my mandolin, it's always the UNWOUND strings that are most prone to breakage, especially the E! So, there is little room for improvement there, in my opinion, in terms of durability. Of course, titanium is more corrosion resistant than steel, but the most problematic corrosion happens on the surface of the windings mostly, not inside on the core, so any claims about "superior corrosion-resistance" that Martin makes seem largely irrelevant to me. The string longevity will mainly be governed by the nickel windings, and not by the titanium cores. But it's true that nickel tends to corrode more slowly than phosphor bronze, anyway. So these strings might be expected to have longer longevity than, say, D'Addario J-74's. But that would not be because of the use of titanium.

Again, the mass comes mainly from the nickel winding. As you change the relative thicknesses of the cores and the windings, all while keeping the mass-per-unit-length about the same, you will alter the tone a bit. So maybe this gave Martin some room to explore slightly different sounds and core/winding combos? Since nickel is a bit denser than bronze, they could even make a thinner string made of nickel-wound titanium that supports the same tension as a bronze-wound steel string.

Anyway, I have not heard what these strings sound like, yet, so I am reserving judgment about tone quality. Maybe they sound great? But advertising space-age materials like titanium seems like a sure-fire marketing gimmick, regardless of whether these strings truly sound better or last longer. So maybe this will be a winner? And you can be sure that at least some folks will write in to the Mandolin Cafe and swear they made their "The Loar" sound more like a 1922 Loar.

Hey, what about using adamantium cores?

[DougC]

It sure looks like an effort to be like Thomastic strings and marketing titanium is the money maker.

And guess who will probably try them out?

[MediumMando5722]

Hey, what about using adamantium cores?

Nice breakdown there, Bub

Seems like not much difference in product for a considerable difference in price.

[Jim Garber]

The only instrument string I am aware of is Thomastik Titanium Violin strings. I checked on their site but they don't give info on what parts are titanium. I use regular Vision on my fiddles but those have a synthetic core. They say the same about the titanium version. The price is almost twice per set what the non-titanium version costs.

[lenf12]

Sblock said "Hey, what about using adamantium cores?"

Unobtanium...

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

[Bob Buckingham]

D'Addario makes violin strings with titanium wrap. D and A for their Helicore sets and they are my choice for tone and longevity.

[sblock]

D'Addario makes violin strings with titanium wrap. D and A for their Helicore sets and they are my choice for tone and longevity.

Yes, but the Martin strings we're discussing have a titanium core, not a titanium wrap! They have a nickel wrap.

[mandroid]

Any how like steel Titanium is Pure or made in different alloys. mostly know of the ones used in Bicycle frames

and piping for some really corrosive liquids and the SR 71 Spy Plane.


..

[jasona]

Your concern is warranted. The pitch of a string depends on these two things: (1) its tension and (2) its mass-per-unit-length (that is, the linear mass density). Now, the (volume) density of titanium is 4.5 gm/cm^3, whereas the density of steel is about 7.6 gm/cm^3 (it ranges from 7.5 to 8.0 gm/cm^3 for different types of steel). In other words, titanium is 1.7 times LESS dense. This means that a solid-core string made purely of titanium would need to be the square-root-of-(1.7) = 1.3 times thicker than a comparable steel string to have the same mass-per-unit-length, and therefore sound the same note at the same tension.

Of course, the lower strings (G and D) on a mandolin, and sometimes the A, are all wound. In a wound string, the core material (steel or titanium) supports all the tension, whereas the winding material (usually brass, bronze, nickel, etc.) supplies most of the mass-per-unit length. In the Martin titanium core strings, this wrapping is made from nickel, not titanium. Also, the unwound strings (A and E) are not made from titanium, either: these are made of stainless steel (Martin says this is "cryogenically treated stainless"). Not much different from the strings you currently use.

In summary, the cores of the wound strings are the only things with titanium in them in this set. I don't know what the actual core diameters are. They certainly don't need to be any thicker than steel cores, though, because titanium is about 3 times stronger than steel: the tensile strength of titanium is about 1500 mPa, compared with about 500 mPa for stainless steel. So the cores could be made thinner, in principle, without sacrificing strength. Maybe these wound strings break less often? But on my mandolin, it's always the UNWOUND strings that are most prone to breakage, especially the E! So, there is little room for improvement there, in my opinion, in terms of durability. Of course, titanium is more corrosion resistant than steel, but the most problematic corrosion happens on the surface of the windings mostly, not inside on the core, so any claims about "superior corrosion-resistance" that Martin makes seem largely irrelevant to me. The string longevity will mainly be governed by the nickel windings, and not by the titanium cores. But it's true that nickel tends to corrode more slowly than phosphor bronze, anyway. So these strings might be expected to have longer longevity than, say, D'Addario J-74's. But that would not be because of the use of titanium.

Again, the mass comes mainly from the nickel winding. As you change the relative thicknesses of the cores and the windings, all while keeping the mass-per-unit-length about the same, you will alter the tone a bit. So maybe this gave Martin some room to explore slightly different sounds and core/winding combos? Since nickel is a bit denser than bronze, they could even make a thinner string made of nickel-wound titanium that supports the same tension as a bronze-wound steel string.

Anyway, I have not heard what these strings sound like, yet, so I am reserving judgment about tone quality. Maybe they sound great? But advertising space-age materials like titanium seems like a sure-fire marketing gimmick, regardless of whether these strings truly sound better or last longer. So maybe this will be a winner? And you can be sure that at least some folks will write in to the Mandolin Cafe and swear they made their "The Loar" sound more like a 1922 Loar.

Hey, what about using adamantium cores?

I suppose the plus side is that you can board a plane without security raising an eyebrow since titanium is invisible to the metal detection. And non magnetic is you can play in an MRI machine. But if you play enough to heat them up wouldn't they elongate? Constantly be tuning and retuning, and retuning again as they cooled off.

I mean, extrapolating from what I know of Ti in other contexts...

[sblock]

I suppose the plus side is that you can board a plane without security raising an eyebrow since titanium is invisible to the metal detection. And non magnetic is you can play in an MRI machine. But if you play enough to heat them up wouldn't they elongate? Constantly be tuning and retuning, and retuning again as they cooled off.

I mean, extrapolating from what I know of Ti in other contexts...

Sorry, but I'm afraid this is not correct. Titanium is not invisible to metal detectors. The metal detectors used in airports induce eddy currents in conductive metals using an oscillating coil, and they do not rely upon any ferromagnetism, so they're perfectly capable of picking up nearly all conducting, metal objects. They can easily sense copper, aluminum, gold and silver (which are all nonmagnetic), for example, and not just iron and steel (which are magnetic). And they can sense titanium perfectly well, too. In fact, the airport metal detectors are notorious for sending off alarms whenever folks with artificial hip joints (which are mostly titanium) walk through! These folks usually have to undergo secondary screening. And ditto for folks who don't remove gold and silver jewelry.

As for elongating when you heat them up, ALL metal strings elongate when you heat them up, not just titanium!! The coefficient of expansion of steel is about 12 x 10^-6 per degree C, and the coefficient of expansion of titanium steel is about 8.6 x 10^-6 per degree C. So if anything, a titanium string will expand just a bit less than a comparable steel string, not more! And metal expansion/contraction is the main reason why you need to retune when you move your instrument outdoors to play on a cool evening, in fact.

[jasona]

Huh. Now I'm disappointed that my new titanium plate in my head didn't set off any metal detectors. Obviously I need a larger mass.

(I was just kidding around, with the whole flavor of the month trend alarm these Ti strings set off with me. However the last bit about warming is interesting, since I was under the impression that planes made of titanium--SR-71 specifically--has to be made with hangars to recycle fuel since the skin has to be designed for the expansion of Ti and so it leaks at rest. Might be more related to the excessive speeds that plane achieves--although friction one would expect to be reduced at the similarly extreme high altitude. Honestly I have never given the matter a great deal of thought beyond what I have read elsewhere.)

[Ted Eschliman]

These will be very hard to get, even after they are released. Our Martin District Sales Rep has been allocated only a few dozen in a few state region, so you aren't likely to find a dealer budging on the $40 price. They aren't easy to produce.

[Shelagh Moore]

I used Rohrbacher titanium core guitar strings (with nickel windings) until I ran into problems having them sent to the UK. I liked them a lot.