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Thread: Stradivarius, del Gesu and Loar

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    Default Stradivarius, del Gesu and Loar

    With those luthiers in mind, is there any other instrument which rates the old over the modern, quite as much as Stradivarius' and del Gesu's fiddles and Loar's mandolins? Was there ever a blind test made between Loar's instruments and those made by modern mandolin makers of comparable experience and expertise?

    "Why is it that musicians and scientists reach different conclusions when considering the same data?"

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    Default Re: Stradivarius, del Gesu and Loar

    Blind tests have been quite thoroughly done, and are not particularly as useful as one would think. Lots of variables and psychoacoustics.

    Lots depends on what you're looking for. One can certainly make a career and nobody in the audience will tell by playing a great modern instrument. However, I have seen someone identify the maker of an old violin on a recording without even looking up, just saying "that is a really nice del Gesu, the X isn't it?" But players are recognizable and the instruments they play are known, and I don't know that the mind can separate all that stuff out.

    It's an interesting and possibly impossible kind of study. Assume it takes a great player to really tell the difference. We're down to relatively few people. Suppose it takes a great listener to hear the difference afar. I suspect people who listen very hard and in detail (like instrument adjusters) would be sort of there. At that point, does it matter?

    However, I was at a concert with my dad where I casually and without thinking identified the instrument makers, except the cello in the quartet, without even thinking about it. But I know the instruments at the Library of Congress, so I'm primed unconsciously to listen for them. I've heard detailed recordings of them and listened hard. So it's not magic.

    Looking forward to other observations.
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    Registered User fscotte's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stradivarius, del Gesu and Loar

    Well, it seems to me that mandolins and violins are the only mainstream instruments that have been around for a long time. I mean if Strad made a drumset, I am sure that we'd be comparing drums as well. Lutes, not many people play, modern guiar design probably gets a close 3rd.

    Piano, probably 4th. Piano critics are very passionate about their tone as well.

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    Default Re: Stradivarius, del Gesu and Loar

    Quote Originally Posted by billkilpatrick View Post
    With those luthiers in mind, is there any other instrument which rates the old over the modern, quite as much as Stradivarius' and del Gesu's fiddles and Loar's mandolins?
    Probably not to the same degree as the hero-worship of Lloyd Loar, but pre-war Martin guitars and certain pre-war Gibson Mastertone banjos are very highly regarded. They command seemingly ridiculous prices from players and collectors.

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  8. #5

    Default Re: Stradivarius, del Gesu and Loar

    Subject of this video is fiddles and the results are inconclusive, but I think it's appropriate and interesting:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNzRHuqvMxQ

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    Default Re: Stradivarius, del Gesu and Loar

    The Strad and the Loar too, have become the bullseye. As long as most people see them as the target against which all other instruments are measured, there is no beating them by definition.

    There are many modern makers of violins and mandolins that could well be every bit as good as the Strad and the Loar, if not in some cases better, but in a bullseye world all you can measure is how close they come to the Strad or to the Loar. You can come close to the bullseye, and theoretically achieve it, but in actuality everything is different from everything else. And in a bullseye world, any difference is, by definition, not as good.

    We do not know if perhaps a modern violin maker has already made a violin that is as good as a Strad. Maybe it sounds exactly the Strad sounded when it was new. Maybe in 250 years it will sound the same as a Strad now. Same idea with a Loar. Will a Gil or a Dude be as good as a Loar? I'll let you know in 95 years.

    But all comparisons aside, there are going to be differences, some will hear them some will mistake them, but if you configure your competition as a bullseye, then no difference is tolerated, and the Strad and the Loar win again. By definition.
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    Default Re: Stradivarius, del Gesu and Loar

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    ... I'll let you know in 95 years.
    I'm an optomist too - let's fix a date and meet up ...

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    Default Re: Stradivarius, del Gesu and Loar

    Quote Originally Posted by billkilpatrick View Post
    With those luthiers in mind, is there any other instrument which rates the old over the modern, quite as much as Stradivarius' and del Gesu's fiddles and Loar's mandolins?...
    There are those that question the validity of your premise in regards to Loar signed Gibson F5 mandolins. Whether or not one agrees personally, I don't believe you can reasonably question that association of Loar signed F5 mandolins as being the standard. I wish those who feel otherwise would come in and articulate their reasonings to the contrary in this thread...
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    Default Re: Stradivarius, del Gesu and Loar

    3 lottery win instruments right there. And I think they're equally valuable as art. IMO, when you combine art and functionality at such a high level, you get the prices for these instruments. It's exponential. And it's great that music, and old school music styles to boot, are still valued so high. It's encouraging.
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    Default Re: Stradivarius, del Gesu and Loar

    One thing to realize is all Strads are not created equal, but the good ones, oh my.....

    I guess the same holds for Loars.
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    Default Re: Stradivarius, del Gesu and Loar

    Selmer Mk 6 saxes are getting there. Clarinets sure aren't, but there are people who go crazy over Kaspar mouthpieces (and there's a camp that searches out old purple-box Vandoren reeds). I think the top-quality modern stuff, once it's broken in, is as good or better.

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    Default Re: Stradivarius, del Gesu and Loar

    relative to the initial post, i would also offer up D'angelico archtops (the originals) as the epitome of an instrument, for the benchmark for archtops. i have a number of very nice gibson and epiphone archtops, mostly 30's and 40's, which have great voices. a few are really great. i also have played a few from modern makers too but not too many off them. for comparison, i also have a recently acquired '39 D'angelico. that guitar, however, is just from another world. it has such an amazing voice and responsiveness all over the neck. so to me, that is the sound, at least a voice, to target as an archtop builder. put that in your list!

    yes, there have been a number of acoustic and blind listening "experiments" of varying rigor, some covered in m'cafe threads, and some had modern violins being rated as better than a strad or guarnieri in the same test batch. granted there is some subjectiveness in the tests but humans were involved so what can you say. i know some violin makers who consider the possibility that some of the great violins of the past maybe at or past their prime due to being "played out". another discussion point for another forum.

    relative to Br1ck comment:
    i have played maybe 13 loars so far, not a lot but more than many. i've been more surprised at how different they are, 2-3 were real knockouts, some didn't grab me at all, at least for the price. I have played a few gilchrist mando's that were stunning and others, with no disrespect intended, that just didn't do it for me; one was downright objectionable to me. the gil's also surprised me at how diff they sound btwn individual mando's. e.g. - listen to the sound files for that recent/current batch on his website.

    a few years ago i went on a major roadtrip (3000 miles over two 4 day wkends) looking for a gil after i played one that revealed to me the existence that truly top level of sound. i played a number of them, as well as a good number from other significant builders, but none that i could get my hands on were notably (for the extra $10-15K) beyond my newson considering several aspects of the overall tone and voice. at the very end of my trip, almost by chance as i had concluded it just wasn't going to happen on this trip, i ended up with the 1st red diamond July 9th mando. wow! it really had those qualities that really put it in that top tier of tone and voice.

    so i guess what i am saying, like Br1ck, is that some makers do really put out benchmark instruments. but from my experience, somewhat limited, even the great makers probably don't make those top tier instruments in every one (though i haven't yet played a so so D'angelico). so i'd say the benchmarks for comparison, whether violin, mando, or guitar, really should be those that are truly in that top tier, however you define that. for me, its readily apparent when you play those top tier instruments, they have something extra in the tone and voice and presence that just give it so much dimension and texture beyond the really good ones. i don't know how to tell how much is due to the prior playing and passage of time in these probably great from the start instruments but they are notably superior now. that red diamond and some gils had the something extra so maybe time is just more frosting on the aural cake offered up. there is a lot more to greatness than loud.

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    Loarcutus of MandoBorg DataNick's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stradivarius, del Gesu and Loar

    mandobouy,

    Shaun Garrity's Heiden A model is like what you describe, along with a Nugget F5 that lives here in San Diego County...
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  19. #14

    Default Re: Stradivarius, del Gesu and Loar

    Somewhere in there is an interesting discussion on iconography. Sorry, I had to sit through a bunch of sociologic/philosophic stuff as a grad student in art history - and why van gohs are valued at $1M+, etc. It's interesting to observe all the sociocultural phenomena and object effects (e.g. the mandolin's relationship with the violin may to some greater or lesser extent be a determinant in its valuation, etc. and all the variety of sociological detail that comprises sociocultural iconography). So we always look at an object and evaluate its variously manifest value in a society, not only monetary, but all aspects determining value; and in musical instruments we have the functional-object (visual art also 'functions,' but in different way than in music) and of course music is to some extent objectified in the 'West,' etc. And the object acts on its population, etc: how the icon/symbol functions in a reflexive dynamic (the words of my profs). Humans are weird - we're fun to observe.

  20. #15

    Default Re: Stradivarius, del Gesu and Loar

    I tend to think there is a way to compare instruments by making recordings in a controlled environment and computer-aided analysis of the graphical spectrum. That elminates the human-induced influences and should end many controversies. Since it is not that difficult to do technically I think it has been done already by the acoustic engineers. Why we do not see the results widely circulating? I guess the reason is pretty obvious, it can hurt the business.

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    Default Re: Stradivarius, del Gesu and Loar

    Quote Originally Posted by vic-victor View Post
    I tend to think there is a way to compare instruments by making recordings in a controlled environment and computer-aided analysis of the graphical spectrum..
    Seems to me like using a more powerful microscope to look for the soul. Unless the bullseye mentality can be changed, the measurements, its seems to me, are not the point.

    You can verify to seven decimal places that this is not a Loar, and so, by definition it is not as good.
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  22. #17

    Default Re: Stradivarius, del Gesu and Loar

    I'm of two minds on this. Individuals do make a difference - no doubt about it - but the hype factor works as well. Living as we do in the "Advertising Age," I think all of us are engaged to some degree or other in " ... expectation-driven perception" as opposed to "evidence-driven perception."

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    Default Re: Stradivarius, del Gesu and Loar

    One of the truly difficult to measure things about instruments is capturing a valid measure of the sound radiation. It's a bit spiky, and those spikes and lobes move around with such things as vibrato.

    Look at the pipe organ. I had a pipe organ to play with for a bit. The manual was in the SW corner. The pipes were all along the W wall in various ranks. The room was tall with a pointy ceiling. Lots of windows, but lots of seats and diddly bits. What was the instrument? I have to say the entire room was the instrument. That's the way a violin or mandolin (lesser extent) sounds to me. It includes the room. I've played both mandolins and especially violins that were way too big for the room. I've played violins that I suspect were the right size for big concert halls. Not loud under the ear really, but the radiation coming back from the room was intense.

    The really big instruments I've played were - oddly enough - the expensive ones. A couple were very very big and exceptionally expensive, and way out of my ability to handle!

    There's so much more to this than easy measurement can get to, and to a very large extent one has to be a big instrument player to recognize and use a big instrument.
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    Default Re: Stradivarius, del Gesu and Loar

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen Perry View Post
    ...A couple were very very big and exceptionally expensive, and way out of my ability to handle!
    ... to a very large extent one has to be a big instrument player to recognize and use a big instrument.
    Fwiw, far and away the most difficult instruments I've studied are (large, floor) wire strung harp, and double bass (jazz, arco).. So I would totally concur with you on that; big instruments (given that they are sensitive/quality, etc.) have massive power, great range, and typically abundant volume - and so requiring at least this ability from the player - to be able to elicit/exploit these from the instrument. Playing a 'big' instrument IS much different than a smaller instrument - both requiring their disparate skill set.

    *(But OTOH, all wind instruments tend to be 'difficult' as well - they're just infinitely sensitive/expressive)
    Last edited by catmandu2; Mar-07-2017 at 6:46pm.

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    Default Re: Stradivarius, del Gesu and Loar

    I've seen a japanese robot playing violin. It will play the same way it has been programmed on any instrument. By playing and recording the specially designed testing musical patterns it is possible to capture the full instrument sound range spectrum and compare it to the other known examples. This is the scientific approach. I am sure we'll see some myths busting there if it becomes popular one day. That way any instrument can be assessed against other known examples sound-wise and it's value would probably be partially based on that assesment. There was a scientific acoustic lab in Russia in the 1930's that tried to do that, but their aim was different. Not just to compare individual instruments, but to make a set of rules for the state-run factories to be able to make good-sounding instruments. Obviously they didn't have computers at that time and judged by just listening.

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    Default Re: Stradivarius, del Gesu and Loar

    Quote Originally Posted by billkilpatrick View Post
    With those luthiers in mind, is there any other instrument which rates the old over the modern, quite as much as Stradivarius' and del Gesu's fiddles and Loar's mandolins? Was there ever a blind test made between Loar's instruments and those made by modern mandolin makers of comparable experience and expertise?

    "Why is it that musicians and scientists reach different conclusions when considering the same data?"

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    Dr. Daniel Levitin is referred to in the link above. An interesting paper by him on Bill's question wrt Strads and del Gesu's and expectation driven perception is available here:
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4034199/
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    Default Re: Stradivarius, del Gesu and Loar

    One of the key issues with blind short tests is the limited time. People really shopping for good performance instruments (at least the portable ones) usually take the instrument to various venues, play concerts with them, and otherwise test them in the real world. I've sent out a few for that, and been surprised at the feedback.

    I'm reminded of two concerts I went to in the same venue fairly close in time. One of the fellows was playing one of those nice del Gesu fiddles with a fancy name and so on. A bit of a dark gruff brilliance. Very easy to hear, thrilling in fact, transparent and perfectly audible over a small orchestra even back in the Steve can afford seats.

    The other fellow, one of those people who has a recognized name, was playing a quite different program. The instrument was one of those beat up old Amati things, with a supple and absolutely delightful tone. Until the smaller orchestra started up, whereupon it disappeared almost completely.

    I strongly suspect that I would far prefer to play the Amati here in the house, and would be unlikely to make the del Gesu perform. But maybe I could get the del Gesu to kick ass if I worked with it for a week or two. And the lovely Amati might well start to seem perhaps too mellow after a few years.

    How long are these blind tests?
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  31. #23

    Default Re: Stradivarius, del Gesu and Loar

    When talking violins one has to be aware that a violin that is superb for a soloist, may not be ideal for a chamber group or an orchestra, where blending with others may be more important than projection and volume. Different tools for different tasks.
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  32. #24

    Default Re: Stradivarius, del Gesu and Loar

    There is a book I recently read called Review of Violin Making: Ancient and Modern. It was copyright 1899 by W.W. Oakes. His premise was that the Cremona violin makers had no magic recipe, that they built as many mediocre instruments as good ones, the bad ones did not survive, that it was and is a trial and error process to get a good instrument. Further all except one of the Cremona instruments had been re necked and had major upgrades since they were built so they were not the same instruments. With the original short necks and tuned to a lower frequency standard as at the time they were made he felt they were probably muddy and flat sounding by more modern standards. Their reputation was acquired because they had made several design changes and were a significant improvement on the instruments that preceded them. He felt "modern" (for 1899) instruments preformed equally well or better in blind tests.

    That was the gist of his argument made in 1899. The same discussion and points have been going on for at least 118 years and counting. In his case in full book length.

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    Default Re: Stradivarius, del Gesu and Loar

    Quote Originally Posted by Br1ck View Post
    When talking violins one has to be aware that a violin that is superb for a soloist, may not be ideal for a chamber group or an orchestra, where blending with others may be more important than projection and volume. Different tools for different tasks.
    My point. Not distinguished in blind tests.
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