eBay buyer and goods not received

[5bassman]

About a year ago I sold a bass amp on the Talkbass forum. I shipped it USPS Priority. The tracking showed it was delivered but the buyer said he didn't have it. So he stopped his mailman and asked him about it and on that day there was a sub standing in for him. So the mailman asked the sub about it and he said that he left it on the porch. So the buyer got to thinking and knew there was a house on his street that had the same street name and first two street numbers but the last two numbers were switched. He knocked on their door and asked them about a package and they checked their back porch and, boom, there it was. The buyer in your case needs to do some investigating. If he refuses to, I smell a scam. I also looked up the street view on Goggle to make sure it's a house and not something fishy. Worth the few seconds it takes.

[Bill Kammerzell]

I do insurance. I do signature. No signature. No package. Just had a Cafe buyer refuse a package (mandolin) without opening it. Wanted his money returned when the tracking showed the package was on its way back. He said "from here on it is between you and the post office". After I stopped laughing, and got up off the floor, I told him, when I had the mandolin in my hands, he could have his money. To cover myself, I contacted the Cafe and PayPal. Both agreed, no mandolin, no money. There are squirrely buyers everywhere.

[Jeff Mando]

We should note there is a difference between someone's wife saying they can't have a new mandolin and have to send it back and a full-fledged scam. Small difference, I'll grant you -- both are a nuisance for the seller.

I recently sold an antique car on eBay and included 24 pictures and well as 8 long paragraphs of description. I had every kind of disclaimer I could think of -- It hasn't ran in 7 years, it has rust, it needs a paint job, it needs tires, it is missing this and that, etc. -- I think I even said "NO CRYBABIES" -- even at that I had a very nice man who wanted to buy it from several states away and paid for it and picked it up in a timely manner. When we actually met in person, he told me, "when I read your ad, I told my wife, this man has done a lot of buying and selling on eBay!"

[Bill Kammerzell]

We should note there is a difference between someone's wife saying they can't have a new mandolin and have to send it back and a full-fledged scam. Small difference, I'll grant you -- both are a nuisance for the seller.

I recently sold an antique car on eBay and included 24 pictures and well as 8 long paragraphs of description. I had every kind of disclaimer I could think of -- It hasn't ran in 7 years, it has rust, it needs a paint job, it needs tires, it is missing this and that, etc. -- I think I even said "NO CRYBABIES" -- even at that I had a very nice man who wanted to buy it from several states away and paid for it and picked it up in a timely manner. When we actually met in person, he told me, "when I read your ad, I told my wife, this man has done a lot of buying and selling on eBay!"

As I did. Every scratch, nuance and disclaimer, along with a 48 hour turn around. One day before the mandolin was to arrive, I was told he no longer wanted it. Oh well. It will sell. I will get my mandolin. He will then get his money. I might add, I told him to never contact me about a listing. He could offer me double the asking price and I won't as much as acknowledge the offer.

[A 4]

I am, right now, on the other side of this. Ordered an item off of Ebay (not mando related - bathroom fan related), there were a couple of shipping delays, UPS then showed it was delivered. There was someone home when they said it was delivered. I tried to have them try and find it, but somehow my request was "cancelled," but without notifying me. UPS is not being helpful and will only deal with the seller. The seller sometimes replies to email, but not much help so far. Seems like I am stuck.

[Folkmusician.com]

Seems like I am stuck.

You can demand a refund for this, but if the seller is reasonable, I would give them a chance to resolve it on their end before making a formal complaint.

It takes around 8 days for UPS to complete a lost package investigation. In that time, the seller won't receive any updates unless the package is found.

[Stephen Perry]

Demonstrates why explicit risk of loss terms are so important.

[Folkmusician.com]

Stephen,

I haven't looked into this, but I assumed one was bound to eBay and PayPal's terms by using their service. Is this not the case?

[Stephen Perry]

I suspect so, if those address risk of loss. PayPal has done some horrible things to us, so we prefer not to use. Ebay has done weird stuff, too, so I prefer not to use. Can't remember what terms annoyed me, but there were terms that annoyed me.

The way I think of it is that I am arranging shipping for someone as a courtesy. Risk of loss for all buyers passes to that buyer when the package leaves the door or is placed into the hands of a common carrier. FOB my place of business. Otherwise I am favoring remote over in person buyers.

[Jeff Mando]

I suspect so, if those address risk of loss. PayPal has done some horrible things to us, so we prefer not to use. Ebay has done weird stuff, too, so I prefer not to use. Can't remember what terms annoyed me, but there were terms that annoyed me.


The way I think of it is that I am arranging shipping for someone as a courtesy. Risk of loss for all buyers passes to that buyer when the package leaves the door or is placed into the hands of a common carrier. FOB my place of business. Otherwise I am favoring remote over in person buyers.

Good points, Stephen. I agree Paypal and eBay rules are beyond annoying, as a seller, but I still use them because the greater good is that I can sell instruments and related accessories to people in Europe, Japan, South America, etc., that I wouldn't otherwise be able to do business with. eBay finds those people for me and Paypal takes care of the money transfer. And, most of the time it is incredibly easy to accomplish. AND YES, one guy in 500 is a stinker and pushes all the wrong buttons and I consider that to be the "cost of doing business" in order to make to other sales that went smoothly.

I agree shipping is a huge courtesy and takes a lot of my time to pack something correctly, but again, it is part of the deal to get a customer or specifically, the customer who will pay my price.

[Petrus]

I might add, I told him to never contact me about a listing. He could offer me double the asking price and I won't as much as acknowledge the offer.

I've banned a couple of buyers on eBay from being able to bid or purchase my listings due to problems with them in the past, but the proportion of problem cases is so far fairly reasonable (~ 2%) so I am continuing to use eBay/PayPal for now, until better options present themselves. I read the eBay community discussion boards occasionally and you will find a lot of griping there mostly from long-time sellers unhappy with the constant modifications eBay makes to their rules, usually to sellers' detriment. (Of course you're talking about a Cafe transaction which is altogether different.)

OTOH, most of us are buyers as well as sellers, so policies are always a two-edged sword. I appreciate eBay's buyer protections and they are a major reason why I trust the site when I'm making purchases. A seller's (and buyer's) feedback rating is also a significant factor and I always check that out before making a purchase.

I also check the boxes for buyer requirements when writing a listing, to limit potential problems. I still had one item purchased by someone with 0 feedback, who had signed up to eBay the same day as they made their purchase from me, and paid with an eCheck. Eventually the eCheck bounced (after the item was delivered) but luckily I got reimbursed by PayPal, thanks to their seller protection policies.

[Stephen Perry]

Petrus, fair way to do things. I just hate having to go through all kinds of oddball activities if anything goes wrong. My day to day activities include civil litigation, so anything that makes stuff more complex I try to avoid!! Complex enough stuff every day (2 hearings, an end pin bushing and fit new, and a violin bridge). I only have a few problems that way, mainly concerning condition. When did something break? Whose fault is it? Who will pay?

I suspect an issue I have is that I deal in contracts all the time, including the UCC. So I see a goods contract and I think UCC. All these additional protections and checks are nice, but they overlay an existing and powerful system, which has strong and weak points. On the other hand, I'm pretty much amazed that the average knowledge of contracts is so incredibly poor. I knew 10x more than average or thereabouts before I even thought about studying law. Likely comes with having been in business off and on for a while.

Push comes to shove, I want to know how I can find and apply pressure to someone I'm doing a deal with. I'm sensitive to being cheated or lied to. I have an email - call - demand - sue pattern that seems to work fine. No point in messing around if there's a crook.

But it's hard to distinguish crooks from the merely ignorant, or from people who learned most of what they know from TV, or from the rare situations where there's actually a legitimate problem!

[Folkmusician.com]

but the proportion of problem cases is so far fairly reasonable (~ 2%)

My percentage is a bit higher than Petrus, maybe closer to 5%. This is my estimate not factoring in legitimate problems (which do happen, but like Stephen, I believe them to be rare). Of course, I am not restricting buyers in any way. I personally have as much or more trouble from long time eBayers as I do with new accounts.

But it's hard to distinguish crooks from the merely ignorant, or from people who learned most of what they know from TV, or from the rare situations where there's actually a legitimate problem!

I believe this applies to the eBay quite well. Many buyers are not familiar with what they are buying and may have unrealistic expectations in regards to shipping, the product itself, its usage, etc... String breakage is one. "I ordered this set of strings and one just broke. I can't believe this only lasted 2 weeks. What kind of junk products are you selling? This is just unacceptable, I want a refund!"

In these cases, I believe the customers really believe that the product is defective. These are probably good people that are simply not familiar with instruments. There are MANY versions of this.

"My instrument didn't come with a warranty card or any paperwork (many of the brands do not include any paperwork)! Is this used? I have been playing 35 years and never received an instrument without paper work!".

I don't doubt that the customer is telling the truth. They have bought numerous instruments that all came with paperwork. So they find it hard to believe that the one they just purchased from me, doesn't come with anything. Once this sets in motion, the trust is gone and even if they accept that this particular maker does not supply warranty cards, they now have a bad taste over the transition and buyers remorse sets in.

The list goes on and on and these things can quickly escalate!

These are not dishonest people and their expectations are not unreasonable if we are talking about normal consumer products. A new microwave that only costs $89.99, comes without even the smallest blemish anywhere. It functions flawlessly and includes paper work in 27 different languages. So it is logical for someone unfamiliar with the stringed instrument world to expect similar from the purchase of an instrument.

"what do you mean I need to tune it, I thought this was new and setup".

I try to give people the benefit of the doubt, but it doesn't make it any easier to deal with.

The fact still remains! No other source of sales is nearly as problematic as eBay. For this reason, I do very little instrument sales there. It just isn't worth it and often isn't even profitable after the returns and "lost" packages".

I do run a fairly busy personal account selling off my decades of hoarding loot. I am constantly having to hit the refund button.

[Seonachan]

I once ordered a cheap thing on ebay and it was marked delivered, but didn't show up in my mailbox. I spoke to the local postmaster the next day, and she told me they scan packages as delivered when they're loaded on the delivery truck in the morning. Seems overly confident! The thing did show up in my mailbox a day or two later, but I suspect it was from a neighbor to whom it had been misdelivered.

[Tobin]

I have always had my packages delivered to my workplace (my employer doesn't mind). UPS, USPS, FedEx, DHL, and even Lone Star deliver here every day like clockwork, and we have secretaries up front who physically receive packages. So there's no stress about packages getting left on my doorstep or stolen. And bonus: I don't have to wait until I get home to open up my goodies!

The only time it has ever been a problem was with a package a few years ago that was supposed to be delivered on Good Friday. My company takes that as a holiday, so no one was here. The UPS driver saw that our door was locked, so he took it to the business next door and left it with them, thinking that they would be kind enough to give it to us when we opened the following Monday. He didn't leave a note on our door to tell us that.

Well, I of course expected my package to be delivered on Monday, but it didn't show up. Tracking said it was delivered. This led to numerous phone calls, emails, etc. It took about a week for the neighbor to remember they had a package that was supposed to come here. But they could have just denied they had it, and kept it. It really surprises me that the big shipping companies continue to be so irresponsible with packages.

[5bassman]

I once ordered a cheap thing on ebay and it was marked delivered, but didn't show up in my mailbox. I spoke to the local postmaster the next day, and she told me they scan packages as delivered when they're loaded on the delivery truck in the morning. Seems overly confident! The thing did show up in my mailbox a day or two later, but I suspect it was from a neighbor to whom it had been misdelivered.

Maybe she meant that they are scanned when loaded on the truck as "out for delivery". I'm retired and if I have a something coming that day that is too big for the mailbox I will meet my mail lady out in the driveway where she pulls into. (I can hear her truck coming up the street). I'll watch as she scans it before handing it to me. I've also met her at the mailbox with a large package to be shipped and she'll scan it before putting it in the truck and I've witnessed her scan stuff before handing it to me at the mailbox too. I check tracking religiously when I'm expecting something. Early the morning of delivery it will show up as "out for delivery " and checking it minutes after delivery it'll show delivered. If insured it will sometimes say "handed to customer ". So I'm sure it depends on where your located and how that office is run, loose or tight

[Bill Kammerzell]

Maybe she meant that they are scanned when loaded on the truck as "out for delivery". I'm retired and if I have a something coming that day that is too big for the mailbox I will meet my mail lady out in the driveway where she pulls into. (I can hear her truck coming up the street). I'll watch as she scans it before handing it to me. I've also met her at the mailbox with a large package to be shipped and she'll scan it before putting it in the truck and I've witnessed her scan stuff before handing it to me at the mailbox too. I check tracking religiously when I'm expecting something. Early the morning of delivery it will show up as "out for delivery " and checking it minutes after delivery it'll show delivered. If insured it will sometimes say "handed to customer ". So I'm sure it depends on where your located and how that office is run, loose or tight

For the most part this has been my experience. If I don't meet the truck I know the mail lady brings it to my door, if it's too big to put in the box. She also knocks hard. I also know she appreciates me meeting her truck, especially when its a large heavy package, because I carry it, and save her the trip. She always scans. She generally gets a kick out of how I chart the tracking too.

[Seonachan]

Maybe she meant that they are scanned when loaded on the truck as "out for delivery". I'm retired and if I have a something coming that day that is too big for the mailbox I will meet my mail lady out in the driveway where she pulls into. (I can hear her truck coming up the street). I'll watch as she scans it before handing it to me. I've also met her at the mailbox with a large package to be shipped and she'll scan it before putting it in the truck and I've witnessed her scan stuff before handing it to me at the mailbox too. I check tracking religiously when I'm expecting something. Early the morning of delivery it will show up as "out for delivery " and checking it minutes after delivery it'll show delivered. If insured it will sometimes say "handed to customer ". So I'm sure it depends on where your located and how that office is run, loose or tight

She may have been wrong about what she was saying, but she did plainly claim that they scan tracking as delivered when they're put on the truck. I even pointed out the problem for filing a claim if it isn't actually delivered, and she got what I was saying. To be clear, this was not a big-ticket item and I wasn't raising an indignant fuss, and she was helpful. But there was no confusion about what scanning status we were discussing. In fact her guess was that the package (which was small) may have slipped somewhere unseen in the truck, not that it was delivered somewhere else and scanned appropriately.

[Stephen Perry]

I had a lady call to arrange for having her daughter's violin tuned. She'd been playing it a few months, and mom thought it was time.

Not really sequitur, but has to be in there in anything about customers!!!

[Bill Kammerzell]

I had a lady call to arrange for having her daughter's violin tuned. She'd been playing it a few months, and mom thought it was time.

Not really sequitur, but has to be in there in anything about customers!!!

Didn't you explain it would be best to have the builder do that? My ex son-in-law still takes his mandolin to a music store for his yearly string change.

[LadysSolo]

Didn't you explain it would be best to have the builder do that? My ex son-in-law still takes his mandolin to a music store for his yearly string change.

He changes strings? You mean they don't last forever?

[Bill Kammerzell]

He changes strings? You mean they don't last forever?

I went to the Del and Dawg show in Nashville last year. Early part of 1st set David Grisman was tuning at the end of just about every song. At one point he looked out at the crowd and said, "I don't know what's going on? They told me it had been tuned at the factory, when I bought it."

[9lbShellhamer]

About 2 minutes ago, a mailman just dropped off a package to my front desk clerk and walked out.

A minute later my front desk person looked at the package and realized it was not ours. It was the wrong address.

It happens...

the real question now is the hit of reimbursing the person who may or may not be scamming you worth the hit of their potential bad review on your ebay account.

Bad situation... At least it's a small hit though. Best of luck.

Maybe the delivery service can refund you.

[MC16]

About 2 minutes ago, a mailman just dropped off a package to my front desk clerk and walked out.

A minute later my front desk person looked at the package and realized it was not ours. It was the wrong address.

It happens...

the real question now is the hit of reimbursing the person who may or may not be scamming you worth the hit of their potential bad review on your ebay account.

Bad situation... At least it's a small hit though. Best of luck.

Maybe the delivery service can refund you.

Has this gone through eBay's resolution center? Head that route before issuing any refunds. Also send the buyer to USPS to file a lost package claim. Before those possibilities have been exhausted do not issue any refunds.

If you get hit with bad feedback you can petition eBay to remove it.

[Timbofood]

That's it, I'm never buying anything which needs to be delivered again! Never shipping to anyone ever again either! All business must be face to face!