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Thread: Moving to an additional instrument after competency w/mando

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    Question Moving to an additional instrument after competency w/mando

    Hi gang!

    I'm at a unique position in life. I'm not rich by any standard, but I find that I'm having plenty of time to practice my instrument of choice: Mandolin!

    However, I've got a secret crush on clawhammer banjo, and I'd like to eventually become a somewhat competent banjo frailer!

    My question is, when would be a good time to introduce the banjo? Would you all wait a couple of years and really get the mandolin under your fingers (if you were me) before you started playing around on the banjo? Or forget the banjo and just stick with the mandolin?

    I'm 47, but I've got pretty much several hours a day to practice, given that my health allows. I don't want to stretch myself too thin, but I'd love to 'peck out' some clawhammer, once I'm competent with the mando.

    Thanks in advance for any tips/advice/stuff I haven't thought about!

    Sincerely,

    VS (style: Bluegrass)

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    Registered User Billy Packard's Avatar
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    Default Re: Moving to an additional instrument after competency w/mando

    I'd say 'go for it'!

    They are so divergent as to be distinctly separate studies.

    Back in the '70's, long before I began mandolin I took a stab at claw hammer and couldn't get it. The rhythm is opposite from guitar finger picking which was what I was deep into. I LOVE claw hammer style banjo, one of the coolest guys was playing a nylon string, fretless banjo. Exquisite.

    Keep us posted!

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    Default Re: Moving to an additional instrument after competency w/mando

    If you have the time and desire to practice that you say go for it. Learn both at same time, that's the way kids do. I know a 14 year old boy that got interested in the Dobro and in a couple of weeks playing it like a pro, I didn't see him for about a month and now he can play anything, banjo, guitar, bass mandolin. His dad says that all he does is practice one and then another. I think if one has the time to do that each instrument helps you learn each other one. I don't know how or why but it seems to be.

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    Default Re: Moving to an additional instrument after competency w/mando

    I say add the banjo. I have played guitar, banjo, mandolin, bass, harmonica, fiddle at different times in performing bands. I am mostly playing mandolin now as there are not many mandolin players here, but playing some guitar again after 30 years of letting it sit so lonesome in the case. I think it is proven each instrument you learn is easier than the last, I am not sure they had an order in mind tho. I feel some are harder than others and clawhammer banjo is backwards to most everything else, still think fiddle is hardest. I play the banjo rarely these days but always enjoyed playing banjo. As someone said they couldn't get the backward playing, don't get discouraged, and don't worry about trying to play too much left hand, just enough to focus on the right hand. ENJOY
    THE WORLD IS A BETTER PLACE JUST FOR YOUR SMILE!

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    Default Re: Moving to an additional instrument after competency w/mando

    Interesting responses.

    Thanks guys!

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    Orrig Onion HonketyHank's Avatar
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    Default Re: Moving to an additional instrument after competency w/mando

    I played clawhammer banjo fifty years ago but let it slip away from me. Still have the banjo, but not the skills. Tried to relearn but got badly frustrated at not being able to master what I used to be able to do 'overnight'. Switched to mandolin and am having a ball learning stuff without the frustration of 'relearning'.

    Anyway, during my attempt to resurrect my banjo habit, I was really amazed at the instruction available for free over the internet. One resource I highly respected during that time was Josh Turknett. He has a bunch of youtube videos, excellent written materials, a unique approach to teaching the banjo. He is worth checking out on YouTube or at clawhammerbanjo.net. I believe all his beginner stuff is free; not sure about his advanced stuff. I signed up on his site two years ago for free and still get weekly links to new 'tunes of the week' with access to tabs for same.

    I can tell you from my experience way back when that you can learn to clawhammer in ways that limit where you can go and that it subsequently is difficult to unlearn those ways and replace them with something that works better. Finding a good instructor like Josh can be a tremendous advantage when starting out by saving you the time and effort of retracing steps. Josh isn't the only one of course, but he is one I related to and found quite good.
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    My website and blog: honketyhank.com

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    F5G & MD305 Astro's Avatar
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    Default Re: Moving to an additional instrument after competency w/mando

    I got my banjo just about 2 years after I started playing mandolin. Clawhammer banjo is just plain fun. And the look on my family's faces when I pull it out and just before they scatter--priceless.
    No matter where I go, there I am...Unless I'm running a little late.

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    Default Re: Moving to an additional instrument after competency w/mando

    There's no need to commit a certain block of time, or establish a specific goal of competency, to justify taking on a new instrument. Practice & progress are FUN in themselves, regardless of the level you're at, and setting minimum requirements is somewhat counter-productive to fun. (Don't we all have enough requirements anyway?)

    Plus: Whatever instrument you choose, regardless of its similarity -or not- to mandolin, can only increase your overall musical acuity and, thus, benefit your mandolin playing. It's sort of like learning foreign languages: the first is the most difficult, the next one a bit easier, etc.

    FWIW: I've been teaching myself piano/keyboard for a few years now. While I'll never be a great pianist, I'm at least competent to bang out a number of tunes w/ chords in the common folk & rock keys. I keep thinking of the jam sessions I passed on after slashing a fretting finger several years back; today I'd just throw the keyboard in the car and play along one-handed.
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    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    Default Re: Moving to an additional instrument after competency w/mando

    When you decide you have too many friends, and spend too much time in close contact with your family...

    ...Take up the banjo.
    Allen Hopkins
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    Registered User Petrus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Moving to an additional instrument after competency w/mando

    I got a tenor banjo a few months ago; they're tuned in fifths like the mandolin family so you can use the same general fingering and a lot of mando tab music will just carry over (though the stretch can be long in some pieces, sort of like with an OM or m'cello.) Another option in fifths tuning includes of course the tenor guitar. I've also fooled around with the guitar bass, retuned in fifths.

    Sierra Hull on tenor guitar:


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    Registered User Tavy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Moving to an additional instrument after competency w/mando

    I would say that adding an additional instrument is always a good idea - it makes you think and stretches you out of your comfort zone even when there isn't much directly transferable between the two instruments.

    As a new owner of a tenor banjo though, I should warn you that these babies are seriously LOUD. Ideal for playing out in noisy environments, not so good for practice at home!

  14. #12

    Default Re: Moving to an additional instrument after competency w/mando

    Not all tenors are loud, openbacks can be almost discreet.

    But you're not asking about tenor, you have already made your mind up what you want to study next, so why are you asking for permission?

    Yes, it's possible you might slow down your improvement curve of mandolin technique by this distraction....so what, are you studying for a test?

    What is your primary musical objective? About the only reason I can think of to deny yourself the clawhammer indulgence is if you are focussed on developing your mando chops enough to get an invite to join a bluegrass band with high standards and strict genre boundaries.

    It sounds like you should just go for what you want the most. Long as its fun.

  15. #13
    Mediocre but OK with that Paul Busman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Moving to an additional instrument after competency w/mando

    As pointed out, banjos are quite loud, but the sound can be damped by stuffing a towel behind the head. There are also banjo mutes (not the large hammer humorously suggested for that purpose).
    I started banjo with a 5 string.Played clawhammer for a while but got tired of retuning all the time for different tunes. Scruggs players don't seem to do that as much, so I tinkered with that for a while. I finally admitted that my main musical interest was Irish or Old Time, so I sold the 5 string and got a tenor. If you can, I"d suggest going to a place that carries both and fool around with them.
    BTW- if you like a Tenor but still want to fool around with clawhammer, that style works very well on a ukulele.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5V4mtZ-0qg
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    Registered User Cary Fagan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Moving to an additional instrument after competency w/mando

    I did the exact same thing. I began playing mandolin at 45, pretty obsessively. But I also fell in love with clawhammer and began playing at 50. It's certainly a second instrument and I always make sure to get my mandolin practice in and to learn new tunes, etc. (just did the Mike Marshall on artistworks). But I also try and pick up the banjo for at least a few minutes every day. One helps the other.
    Cary Fagan

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    Middle-Aged Old-Timer Tobin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Moving to an additional instrument after competency w/mando

    If you want to play clawhammer banjo, go for it! It will take some of your time away from the mandolin, but so what? It sounds like you have plenty of time to work on both. I do think that playing multiple instruments can seriously accelerate your skills across the board.

    I started playing clawhammer banjo about 15 months ago, and am enjoying it so much that I rarely touch my mandolins these days. If I had more free time, of course, I'd try to split my time more evenly between mandolin, fiddle, and banjo. But the banjo is so much easier to pick up and make a full, complete, musical sound with.

    Don't let the naysayers sway you. CH banjo is easy to learn, and it's not "backwards" at all. It's a very natural motion, and should not intimidate you. The folks who seem to have a problem with it are the ones whose minds are locked into finger-picking styles. But the steady down-up-down-up rhythm of clawhammer is not too different, really, than mandolin picking. Obviously, there's more going on with clawhammer, since the thumb has some work to do, and you'll have to learn more advanced fretting hand techniques (much more hammer-ons and pull-offs than mandolin, plus alternate-string pull-offs and such). But in terms of basic motion, clawhammer is about the easiest style of banjo to learn. I think the hardest part of playing CH banjo is learning to live with a longer fingernail, LOL.

    As for volume, it's easy to make a banjo play as quietly as you want. I use several methods. For starters, I typically "stuff the head" with a fluffy hand cloth between the coordinator rod and the head. Moving it around from under the bridge to just in front of the neck joint can affect volume as well as tone. Also, you can make it an adjustable dampener, depending on how thick and firm you fold it up (i.e. how much pressure it puts on the head). And, just for giggles, I also use a knitted bunny doll as an additional pad behind the head. As you can see in the photo below, it adds visual interest when seen through the head. It's like he's saying, "help me, I'm trapped in a banjo!"

    Beyond that, I use a guitar capo strapped to the bridge as a mute. It's the kind of capo that's a metal rod with a rubber sleeve around it, and an elastic band that's supposed to go around the guitar's neck. Well, I just place the bar against the face of the bridge and wrap the elastic around the bridge. It works great in combination with stuffing the head, and I can hammer away on the banjo without bothering anyone.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    Middle-Aged Old-Timer Tobin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Moving to an additional instrument after competency w/mando

    Oh, and I wanted to add a "ditto" for the advice on using Josh Turknett's clawhammer banjo tutorials. That's what got me started, and it made the process very simple. Josh has lots of tabs and material on his website, and he does weekly emails with new tunes.

    His website is https://clawhammerbanjo.net/

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    Default Re: Moving to an additional instrument after competency w/mando

    Love the bunny!

    I would absolutely take up a second, third and forth instrument. It just makes music more enjoyable.
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    Default Re: Moving to an additional instrument after competency w/mando

    The public reaction will go from:

    "What a cute little guitar, did you leave the big one at home?"

    to

    "Oh, you're one of them."
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

    The entire staff
    funny....

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    Default Re: Moving to an additional instrument after competency w/mando

    I was going to learn concertina in order to provide some background chords when recording, then after learning more about it, realized it's an education in of itself & would take away too much from my mandolin time. I bought a melodica instead, which is much easier. Still haven't gotten serious about it, but it's ready when I am. That's in addition to learning mandola!!

  22. #20
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    Default Re: Moving to an additional instrument after competency w/mando

    The music I’ve found myself playing the past several years is country-folk along the lines of John Prine, Townes van Zandt , Guy Clark, Nancy Griffith, The Band, Neil Young, and the like. I do dabble in a little old time but that really isn’t my focus. Depending on the song and whether I’m playing solo or with someone else will determine if I play mandolin, guitar, or banjo (clawhammer or two-finger).

    Because of various tunings as well as styles of play, Clawhammer banjo can really bring depth and emotion to many songs. It can offer an underscore to pain or sorrow that the lyrics are trying to evoke; conversely it’s capable of emphasizing happiness and joy. Clawhammer banjo can be used as a rhythm only instrument, but it shines when played to provide the bass pulse (in a manner of speaking), rhythm, and melody in a song – all at the same time.

    One of the major advantages in learning clawhammer is that it can also teach you so much as to how and where to best include the mandolin in a song.

    Two important considerations for the clawhammer:
    First, you really need to hone your rhythm skills. You’ll probably be setting the pace if you’re playing in a duo or an ensemble. Prior to my learning clawhammer, I thought I had pretty decent sense of timing. I found out fairly quickly that a metronome was and always will be my friend.

    Second, you need a good instrument. Usually a clawhammer player is looking for a less bright sound with a quick decay. To achieve this, my recommendations are a heavier weight banjo with a 12” pot; fiberskyn head; nickel-plated strings; and, preferably a wood tone ring. You may not easily find a banjo with a wood tone ring; if not, just try to get a banjo with a simple brass tone ring that’s not too bright sounding. I’ve also seen some banjos with moleskin between the tone ring and the head to dampen the brightness. Heavier banjos will absorb more sound than lighter weight banjos further reducing the brightness. Of course open back (no resonator) is preferred, with an old t-shirt or towel wadded up in the back to further dampen the sound. While I have a few banjos designed for clawhammer playing, I primarily use a 2005 Ome Juniper Custom with a mahogany neck; it was somewhat pricey but well worth it for the playability and the sound that I prefer.

    Having said all that, let your own personal taste drive what you want to hear from your clawhammer style. If you decide you want a bright sound, then do it. If you choose to play a resonator banjo instead of an open back then do that as well. Some people get too hung up on convention and “that’s-how-it’s-always-been-done” and miss out on the joy of experimenting and developing an individual approach and sound.

    I envy the emotion you’ll feel the first time your “bump-di-ty” turns into a song. Good luck and success!
    Last edited by NursingDaBlues; Feb-27-2017 at 12:24pm.

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    Default Re: Moving to an additional instrument after competency w/mando

    Realizing far too many guitar players were far better than me, I've resolved to be mediocre at as many instruments as possible, so far that is guitar, bass guitar, cigar box guitar, Uke, dobro, and mandolin.

    I've been eyeing a minstrel fretless banjo kit. Love the sound.

    Do what makes you happy. Fortunately, I have a practice space detached from the house, so I can't be accused of animal cruelty, and the dogs can and do just leave.
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  25. #22
    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    Default Re: Moving to an additional instrument after competency w/mando

    Quote Originally Posted by Br1ck View Post
    Realizing far too many guitar players were far better than me, I've resolved to be mediocre at as many instruments as possible, so far that is guitar, bass guitar, cigar box guitar, Uke, dobro, and mandolin....
    My quote is, "I chose versatility over virtuosity."

    I don't add that virtuosity was, in my case, pretty clearly unattainable. Plus, I like all those instruments piled around me.
    Allen Hopkins
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  26. #23

    Default Re: Moving to an additional instrument after competency w/mando

    This thread got me to watch a bunch of clawhammer instruction videos, got me curious on the technique.

    I too play many instruments, and not very well. In my case multiple instruments chose me, my attention span is limited, and the older I get the more limited it seems to become, after 6-mo to a year focussed on one instrument, it is time for another one. So I have seen a lot of synergies between different instruments as well as the jack of all trades and master of none effect. Athough I still hope that one of the new projects will blossom into something resembling mastery of the instrument.

    At this rate I'm not adding new instruments, I just cycle between the ones I already know. Mandolin was the last new instrument for me.

    Bass, drums, and mandolin are my current active instruments. But I have played and performed on piano and guitar as well (but wasn't much good on either one). I also had voice lessons from a great voice teacher, that completely changed my singing for the better.

    I find that when performing on an instrument that isn't your primary, it takes more practice before a performance. Conversely, the better I am on an instrument, the easier it is to just show up and play. So shed time doesn't have to be devoted as much to the individual performances, but simply moving forward on the instrument as a whole - this is the sweet spot for me - and mandolin has a ways to go before it gets to that level.
    Davey Stuart tenor guitar (based on his 18" mandola design).
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    Default Re: Moving to an additional instrument after competency w/mando

    Quote Originally Posted by Astro View Post
    And the look on my family's faces when I pull it out and just before they scatter--priceless.
    I thought that only happened in my house!!
    Chuck

  28. #25
    Registered User Petrus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Moving to an additional instrument after competency w/mando

    Sorry I got off track with the fifths thing, it's just an easy transition to add variety to your instrumentation. Clawhammer is a unique way of playing that will add a lot more variety, not to mention the different tuning setup. It has occurred to me that only playing instruments tuned in fifths isn't really teaching much of anything new at the point I'm at since I end up doing the same numbers on the new instrument anyway and it actually seems to take away from the mandolin. So, clawhammer sounds like a good way to go.

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