Wasburn vs Luna vs Michael Kelly?

[SincereCorgi]

Hmm, So it looks like I should either 1. get a used A style by either Kentucky, MK, or Eastman for under 500, as long as it's Something all solid and carved (what is the general opinion on Breedlove btw?) or 2. I could stick with my rogue until I can get something more expensive than $500.

I would be cautious about MKs. The place I work used to sell them and I was underwhelmed by all their mandolins, although they make some decent electric guitars. I'd say Eastman 305 if you can find one.

[pops1]

I have several mandolins, some do stay in tune better than others. I don't think it is the tuners as much as the instruments themselves. Slight changes in temp. and humidity even a few degrees can make one change more than another, They all have nice tuners and I don't think there is a problem with nut or tuners. Or is there a consistency like going flat or sharp all the time. Sometimes they are sharp, sometimes flat. So I don't think the tuners are slipping or the strings sticking in the nut, if so the problem would be the same every time. And Yes always tune up not down.

[CES]

Pops, duly noted. If I ever change them out I'll report back on whether it made a difference or was the instrument changing...

I'll pay more attention presently as well, but typically it's one or both of a pair going flat...

[Mark Gunter]

IMHO, I'd stay put with what you have and save until you can budget $1,000 - $1,400 where a lot more quality options will open up. Warning, this pattern of wishing you could move up to the "next level" isn't likely to end anytime soon . . . it's an affliction very common to our breed, very contagious with no known cure. That said, enjoy your journey!

This is very common advice here, and while it may seem to make sense, I have to confess that I just don't understand it. mandolin breeze, consider your own wise words in this post: "this pattern of wishing you could move up to the "next level" isn't likely to end anytime soon" - so, in that case, why stop at $1,000? Why not advise him to play his Rogue until he can afford $6k? $12k? or whatever.

In my own case, I started with a pressed top Ibanez . . . I have never once regretted upgrading to a $400 solid wood, carved Washburn, or a $500 solid wood, carved Eastman. And yes, if fortune smiles, I'll soon have a more worthy axe (I can almost taste it). But I'm glad I haven't spent the past year playing that Ibanez. Allen gave a link to a new, slightly blemished Eastman 315. I got a brand new 315 about a year ago for $500 and it was worth it for a year of playing that instrument vs. the Ibanez. There's nothing wrong with saving for the best axe you can get; then again, you're ready for an improvement right now, there's nothing wrong with spending what you can afford for the improvement, whether it costs $500, $1,000 or $10,000. It's all in what a man can afford at the time. And time is the one thing we'll never be able to save up or have any more of.

[mandolin breeze]

Mark Gunter - I hear what you're saying. Upon further reflection, I'll agree that you can indeed get a pretty nice mando in the $500 - $800 range, say a decent Kentucky or Eastman (and others) - and certainly not a thing wrong with them. My initial thought was that in the $1,000 - $1,400 range you'll open up lots of other great instruments from very good "smaller" quantity builders. I think it's generally considered that these small batch builders produce a very nice instrument that is a true cut above and worth the few extra hundred. These can be enjoyed for many years without feeling the need to upgrade. Also, I'd say that given the financial freedom of course, a good rule might be to try and correlate the acquisition of finer instruments with one's playing ability. True indeed that the quality/price ladder extends all the way up into the stratosphere of the Gibson Loars and it's an individual choice as to how high one climbs.

[Charlie Bernstein]

Have you ruled out flattops? They're not as popular as carved, but many are affordable - even all-solid wood axes made in the US.

You might check out Big Muddy Mandolin or Redline, for instance. And there are a lot of used Flatirons around.

[Mark Gunter]

I've got my fingers crossed on an entry-level Collings that may be coming my way in the near future.

[Br1ck]

I got the chance to play a Flatiron 1N recently, and was truly impressed with its playability and tone. Just the best bargain in the store.

And yes, the $1000-1400 price point can buy you a nice Silverangel, Weber, or slightly rough MT, but I agree, pushing the budget will always, with prudent care, yeald nice results.

Shopping the used market can get you a very big upgrade in sound and build quality for $300-500. If that is reality, you won't be disappointed.

[LochJessMonster]

Thanks for the comments everyone! I have decided to stick with my rogue for now, and look to buying a used solid top, carved mandolin. When I'm done with college I'll eventually upgrade to something more on the higher end.
I'm glad that I learned from you guys to go for A models, since you are paying extra for looks with the f model.
For now I've been learning how to set up the mandolin and I changed the setup on my mine; the action is much lower and has been staying in tune better.
Thank you for all of your advice. When I do upgrade, it will probably be through this site or folkmusician.com

[MediumMando5722]

I've got my fingers crossed on an entry-level Collings that may be coming my way in the near future.

Good luck on scoring the Collings!

[Dave Greenspoon]

In general, there is some great advice here. I've pared down to two specialty commissions (Newson and Jerman) and a highly modified Rigel. But over the years, I've owned both a Washburn and a Michael Kelly (among others). With a little TLC and some tweaking they were strong, quality mandolins.

The Washburn was an early 2000's (is the best guess from Washburn) Jethro model. Sounded like a classic bluegrass F-5 in every sense, played easily, great woods, especially top and back. Replacement tuners from Washburn were a timely upgrade. Perfect festival and travel mandolin that barked along with the big dogs.

The MK was the Legacy O (F-4). Some attention by a great luthier in the Berkshires transformed it into an amazing sounding, easy and comfortable playing, tonally versatile, booming axe. I still regret I traded it away years ago.

It all goes to the point that even brands and labels maligned by the cognoscenti have fine instruments that sound much better than you'd expect because of the "rep"; they just might need a little coaxing to get there. In the same vein, I've heard some instruments from highly respected builders and shops that were totally uninspiring. IMO at your stage "the best" instrument is the one you are most inclined to play often that you can afford in the moment. In general, it's true that it is easier to learn on a better instrument. That said, there is nothing wrong with a well-set up Gretsch as a starter instrument, even though Robert is spot-on that a KM 150 can also be a killer little mandolin, and cost less.

Have fun, happy learning, and get playing!

[Verbian]

I have a Michael Kelly Legacy and I would recommend against buying one of these. When I got the mandolin, the nut was so high that you couldn't finger a note at the first fret. This also lead to the intonation being way off. Essentially, the instrument wasn't playable as I received it. I was able to lower the nut myself saving myself $60-120. Now it plays decently, but the instrument just doesn't sound good. The body has close to zero resonance. Pluck a string and you hear the vibration, but you don't hear the body resonating. Kind of anemic sounding.

I just bought a Eastman 815 which is an infinitely better sounding, and playing, instrument. I have also played a Eastman 615 which was really quite nice.

In my recent experience shopping for a mandolin in the $400-500 price range I wish I had bought the Gretsch Park Avenue I looked at which turned out to be a really nice instrument. I bought the Michael Kelly online due to positive reviews, of which I 100% cannot agree. I really wish I had looked at Eastman as well, but there is nothing below a 615 in my town.

[Mark Gunter]

Good luck on scoring the Collings!

Thanks Chris, I got it today! But that's another thread

The Washburn was an early 2000's (is the best guess from Washburn) Jethro model. Sounded like a classic bluegrass F-5 in every sense, played easily, great woods, especially top and back. Replacement tuners from Washburn were a timely upgrade. Perfect festival and travel mandolin that barked along with the big dogs.

Regarding the Washburn: They are much maligned, but my experience with the M106SWK has been a very good one. True, for another $100 I could have gotten the Eastman with a case, but I bought what I could afford at the time. Carved solid spruce top, solid mahogany back and sides, and a very nice vintage look with abalone dot fret markers - it's been a gem of an instrument in many ways. I do my own setup, so no cost involved there. A solidly built and well set up Washburn can be about as good as other Pac rim instruments in its price range. The main thing about any mandolin is the setup, and any one that is decent enough to have the potential to be set up properly can be used to advantage until something shinier shows on the horizon.

[Br1ck]

Re: Michael Kelly. They, or at least the one I have, need a ton of work. Nut, bridge, and frets all are, dare I say, abismal. Do the work and you have a decent mandolin, equal to the more highly regarded competition. I've played some $800 range name brands that also sucked from a poor setup.

The OP obviously moved into a much better instrument.

[Mark Gunter]

The Washburn I had needed work on the bridge, nut and the frets were OK but thin and began wearing grooves within a month. The Eastman had a well-fit bridge, but needed plenty of work on the nut, and also thin frets that wear as fast as the Washburn. Regarding the OP, per post #34, he decided to stick with his Rogue for now, save a bit and upgrade to a low-end carved top instrument, and seek a higher-end mandolin when he's done with college. I think these types of discussions can be helpful to newcomers. IMHO, the best advice is that no matter what level mandolin you can afford, new or used, a good and thorough set up is key to getting the most enjoyment out of it - and if you have more time than money, you can learn to do the setup yourself if you're at all handy.

[LochJessMonster]

Okay so it's probably about now where I start looking indecisive and fickle, but I went to my local music shop and got to play a Kentucky Km250 and a Loar lm300.
I'm not entirely sure which one I like better, the Kentucky sounds great and has low action, but the Loar just feels like it was built nicer. Both mandolins are under $500, the Kentucky is $350, and the Loar is $450. Both need new strings for sure and I'd have the store set it up if I were to purchase one. I could also probably talk them down a bit on the price were I to pay in cash.
On the other hand, I really like the look and sound of the Washburn Oval hole M1SDL which is $200 from a local shop and they do a set up for $40.
I'd obviously save money If I went with the washburn, All have solid tops back and sides, but the Kentucky and Loar are both hand carved.
Hypotheically, If you were to pick between these instruments which would you go with and why?
I was going to stick with the Rogue and wait, but since my local store now has a larger selection it opens new opportunities to consider.
Thanks!

[allenhopkins]

OK, here's where I start sounding a bit snarky, so let me apologize in advance.

You've got a choice of three decent mandolins (I extend "decent" to the Washburn as well), all of which you've played, and all of which have pluses and minuses, features you prefer and others that you don't.

I'd just pick the one that you like the best, and buy it, rather than accumulating another few pages of opinions. Having the opportunity for hands-on evaluation is a quantum leap better than getting long-distance advice from people who may or may not have played those particular models -- and who certainly have never played the individual instruments you're evaluating.

Not to say "you can't go wrong" -- we can always go wrong -- but whatever keen insights and sage counsel you can get on the Cafe, are not worth as much as a few minutes sitting and playing the actual instruments, IMHO.

It's not a life-altering decision, or an unbreakable commitment; just a selection from among reasonable choices, of the mandolin that best suits you. It's your few hundred buxx, you who will be sitting playing that mandolin for the next couple years, and only you that needs to be pleased with the choice.

Good luck.

[LochJessMonster]

I guess you are right. Sorry, I just always try to get whatever knowledge I can on a subject before making a decision. Since I have such little information about the different brands and models, other peoples' opinions and experiences are very valuable and meaningful to me.
You're right though, this thread is pretty long, so this is the last I'll post in this one. Sorry about that.

[Mark Gunter]

Hey LochJess, nevermind Allen (though he does have great opinions and insight) you can post as much as you want. We know that you're a pretty young fellow and you're to be commended for doing research, if only seeking "reviews" of your plans, so to speak. Your questions and your input here is welcome, and no way was Allen saying that your thread is too long.

My takeaway from his post is that, at this point, you're in the best seat to go ahead and make a decision. The one that sounds and feels the best to you is the one you should get. None of those instruments would break the bank, so get the one you want and be sure to have it set up properly. Check the set up when it's ready, to make sure you can depress the strings (fret the strings) easily for a clear sound. The action needs to be pretty low for comfortable playing while you're starting out. Check it before you leave the shop, and let them know if you think it could be better.

You're on your way to starting a love affair with the mandolin, and a fun journey. Best of luck.

[allenhopkins]

Hey LochJess, never mind Allen...no way was Allen saying that your thread is too long. My takeaway from his post is that, at this point, you're in the best seat to go ahead and make a decision. The one that sounds and feels the best to you is the one you should get....

Thanx, Mark; that really was what I intended to say -- not that the thread was too long, but that once you get a real chance to evaluate some mandolins hands-on, there's not as much usefulness in asking others' opinions, especially when those "others" can't play the actual specific instruments, and you can.

There's a certain amount of trepidation, an understandable desire not to make a mistake ("You bought a what?! Are you crazy? You shoulda bought this one instead!"), and to take advantage of all that accumulated Cafe expertise. But OP has zeroed in on some good-reputation mandolins, and has the chance to evaluate them in terms of looks, sound, feel, price, and all the other relevant variables.

So, go ahead and pick one! (Pun intended.) We'll be interested to hear which one is chosen, and how that works out.

[catmandu2]

This is very common advice here, and while it may seem to make sense, I have to confess that I just don't understand it...

Fwiw - it's an axiom that generally holds true among many instrument types; 1 - 1.5 K is where oft-recommended quality student (*serious* might have been a term to use in the past) instruments begin (ime, and in what I've encountered among various music/instrument fora through the years). Markets have seen more lesser-priced viable options in recent years what with saga and various popular imports, yet...it seems a fairly pervasive opinion, and general consensus among the sites I visit (frets, double-bass, harps, woodwinds, free-reeds, et al). It (was?)'s simply *about* what it costs to produce/market an entry-level all-solid wood guitar, a minimum-quality upright bass, small harp, student concertina, reliable horn, etc., and generally where you'll see the 'most bang for your buck' in the next step up from that 3-400 mandolin (generally, the separation is less distinct between, say, a good quality 400-dollar item and a sub-1K item).

Not to contend that a *good* new instrument can't be had for sub 1K - there're always outliers, etc - only trends ..

[Bill Cameron]

Dont worry about thread length Jess, they oftenj go on in furious debate long after the original poster has returned to a normal productive life.
I'm going to specifically respond to the three instruments you are currently considering. I havent played or heard them, so I'll assume they are all decent for what they are and much better than the Rogue. You are on your first step of trading up, so you want to consider value retention when you go for the next trade-up in two or three years.
1. Scratch the Washburn. Nothing personal.
2. Kentucky or The Loar? I'm not an afficionado of either (dedicated Eastman cultist) but I suspect the Kentucky will hold its value better. Simply because we operate on emotions; many people including me--again, on technical analysis I am neutral on both brands, this is an emotional response--would never buy a The Loar because we feel their use of the Loar name is cynical, tacky and misleading. As my previous sentence indicates, the official brand name with "The" is hard to fit into a sentence, so people just call them Loars, which they are not. (See siminoff.net for an introduction to the fascinating story of Lloyd Loar. Nuff said). That just cuts out some of the potential resale market, and the Kentucky brand, although not everyone is crazy for them, does not stir up that negative emotion in anyone I've ever heard. (Although there are probably Kentuckians who don't care to see their home branded on instruments made in Asia). If I were you, I'd try to get the Kentucky for $300, I think that would be a good purchase, best bang-for-buck ratio. And since the km150-250's are considered particularly good buys currently, you can bet they wont stay that cheap for long.
Myself, I'd look for a used Eastman 505, red or brown top not sunburst, for 450-500. That's my emotional response.
Last word: Allen's advice is better than mine. But not the Washburn. Whatever you do, have fun.

[Frogstar]

I owned and played a Washburn M1SDL for over a year, it was a fine upgrade from my Rogue...

[Mark Gunter]

I owned and played a Washburn M1SDL for over a year, it was a fine upgrade from my Rogue...

(Shhhhhh! You'll disturb the mandolin snobs. )

It may be that the main reason Washburns are maligned is because of the trickery and foolery the companies use to make people believe that there is a correlation between the Washburns of today and the Washburns of yesteryear. There is no correlation whatsoever! When their sales pitch indicates that there is, it is a deceptive trade practice.

Nevertheless, I believe you can find decent beginner's instruments among the pacific rim Washburns of today.

Here is a sample of my Washburn; in this case the mandolin is better than the musician. I'm still working on playing the tune, but the mandolin doesn't sound bad for a beginner's instrument IMO:

[catmandu2]

Nevertheless, I believe you can find decent beginner's instruments among the pacific rim Washburns

I think you've hit upon a key aspect here - perhaps it's been mentioned, I'll have to read the thread..

I've found that what the 3-400 (and under) mandolin typically offer is superb *playability* - eminently desirable and vitally important in a (especially) beginners instrument, and kudos to the plethora of manufacturers providing this to aspiring players - there's no dearth of wonderfully suitable entry-level/beginner instruments that can be set-up adequately.

Commonly there's the *next* level - *serious student*. I find that generally what student instruments begin to provide, in contrast to construction that enables an adequate set-up that the entry-level instruments can provide in spades today, is sound *character* - something a good teacher can help with - and the student should be developing one's ear for this in all respects (often neglected) at the outset...(teachers typically stress acquisition of that (*serious*)-student-intermediate-echelon instrument asap - sorry if this sounds snobby... Beginner/entry-level models are perhaps a disproportionate share of mandis at hand but that sound differences/tonal characteristics tend more in the ^ 1K spectrum. Mechanical functionality and set-up capability? - the imports tend to have that nailed -

Anyway, what I'd tell to any student - snooty or not