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Thread: Mandolin playing lead with wind instruments?

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    Registered User Martin Ohrt's Avatar
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    Default Mandolin playing lead with wind instruments?

    Hi everyone,
    has somebody here heard of a mandolinist (or a guitarist) who played lead in a jazz band with wind instruments?
    I'm looking for some inspiration on this topic...
    Mandolins: 1920s (?) Meinel & Herold Bowlback, 2006 Furch "Redwood MA-1" A5

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    Default Re: Mandolin playing lead with wind instruments?

    Well, there is this guy you may have heard of named David Grisman, who plays with a flutist named Matt Eakle.

    Lots of stuff from them.
    Here is the link to the "Live at Jazz Alley" playlsit on youtube:
    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...JiN18WE1gGgVzm

    Check out more of his stuff there or on his label's website:
    http://acousticoasis.com/welcome.html

    Not that I am remotely in the same league as that, but I regularly play with a trumpet player in my band, and jam with a clarinet player at Gypsy Jazz jams.

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    Default Re: Mandolin playing lead with wind instruments?

    Lots of guitarists have played lead with wind instruments.

    E.g.,

    Jimmy Raney with Bob Brookmeyer (trombone)

    George Barnes Ruby Braff (trumpet) Quartet

    John Pizarelli, Rockin' in Rhythm: A Duke Ellington Tribute (horn arrangements by Don Sebesky)

    John Scofield, This Meets That four man horn section

    Fewer mandolin leads with horn sections. Perhaps Tiny Moore with Bob Wills, Billy Jack Wills, or Merle Haggard

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    Registered User Martin Ohrt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolin playing lead with wind instruments?

    Thanks for the sugegstion, Al!
    I'm well aware of the Dawg's existence, but I have just recently started to delve into his music, so I didn't come across this records yet... Unfortunately, i can't access these videos, maybe because I'm outside the US?

    Stuart, I'll check out your ideas, thank you!

    Maybe I should explain a bit more why I asked in the first place:
    My Jazzband (trumpet, sax, bass, drums, piano, banjo/electric octave mando) has to gig without the trumpeter soon, and I'm thinking of "replacing" him with the acoustic mandolin or the electric octave. But I'm a bit afraid that those (especially the acoustic mandolin) will be "drowned out" by drums and sax... So I wondered whether someone already has tried this...
    Mandolins: 1920s (?) Meinel & Herold Bowlback, 2006 Furch "Redwood MA-1" A5

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    Registered User Jordan Ramsey's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolin playing lead with wind instruments?

    If you're playing without sound reinforcement in that combo, my bet is that you're definitely going to be "drowned out" on an acoustic instrument. Even a small amp (if you have a pickup on the instrument) would be enough, or else I would go for the electric octave. I play in an acoustic swing band that has a clarinet. When I'm amplified through a microphone or an amp, I'm fine. In acoustic situations, it can be a struggle. Here's a couple of examples (if you can see them). First with a sound system, second without.



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    Registered User Martin Ohrt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolin playing lead with wind instruments?

    Hi Jordan, no problems with your videos, thanks! That's some fine playing
    My mandolin has no PU, but I would mic it and play through an acoustic combo. I do the same thing even with the banjo when we play at bigger rooms or outdoors...
    So, I'm rather thinking about whether or not mandolin and sax will work together tone-wise. I'm not sure how to express this (I'm no native speaker), but I once tried playing the melody with the sax playing a scored second melody line, and it resulted in the sax being too dominant. So I wonder if t would be enough to crank the amp up a bit, or if it is just a general problem of mandos and guitars that they're blown away by horns..
    Mandolins: 1920s (?) Meinel & Herold Bowlback, 2006 Furch "Redwood MA-1" A5

    Octaves: 2004 Fender FMO-66 Flat-Top, 2015 A. Karperien 5 String Electric

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    Default Re: Mandolin playing lead with wind instruments?

    It can be done, but you might want to alternate melody lines with the sax. I play with a guy known as "Saxophone Paul" (nobody knows his last name) and we usually need to separate our leads as they do not harmonize very well, to my ear. The sax generally has a lot of overtones that can make things a bit confused with other lead instruments. Just my experience. You might be able to play the electric octave in a low register with the sax and have more success. I'll have to try that next time he sits in.

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    Default Re: Mandolin playing lead with wind instruments?

    Quote Originally Posted by colorado_al View Post
    It can be done, but you might want to alternate melody lines with the sax. I play with a guy known as "Saxophone Paul" (nobody knows his last name) and we usually need to separate our leads as they do not harmonize very well, to my ear. The sax generally has a lot of overtones that can make things a bit confused with other lead instruments. Just my experience. You might be able to play the electric octave in a low register with the sax and have more success. I'll have to try that next time he sits in.
    Well, that's excactly what I experienced, too... And that's why I asked if anybody has heard of different experiences. I have heard of different combinations with flute (mando/flute, banjo/flute), but the flute is generally less dominant than saxophones and brass instruments, right?

    I think that most guitarists from Stuart's list alternate with the wind players, too.

    Anyways, maybe we will experiment a bit with the octave/sax-combination. Maybe if I turn up the tone knob a bit, so that the octave gets a sharper, more aggressive sound? I normally tend to like a very soft sound, with the tone knob turned down quite a bit...
    Mandolins: 1920s (?) Meinel & Herold Bowlback, 2006 Furch "Redwood MA-1" A5

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    Default Re: Mandolin playing lead with wind instruments?

    I have had some nice jam sessions with a saxophone player, also with accordion players. I am not sure about brass, that might be too much but a respectful sax player can be fun to play along with.

    Django Reinhardt did quite a few recordings with clarinetist Hubert Rostaing during the war and just after when he and Stefane Grapelli were on opposite sides of the water.

    I have been buried by bass, banjo, fiddle and autoharp players not to mention half a dozen guitars when the people were not respectful. Amplification helps though.

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    Default Re: Mandolin playing lead with wind instruments?

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Ohrt View Post
    Hi everyone,
    has somebody here heard of a mandolinist (or a guitarist) who played lead in a jazz band with wind instruments?
    I'm looking for some inspiration on this topic...
    https://www.amazon.com/About-Time-Do...don+stiernberg

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    Default Re: Mandolin playing lead with wind instruments?

    I play clarinet in various settings with string players, and in others with brasses and saxophones. I have come to think of clarinet as a special case - I can play it in a chamber setting without overpowering the strings by exerting some control, sacrificing some dynamic range. With jazz combos reinforcement is a must, and all the more if it's a mandolin. I like a clip-on mic for the maximum gain.

    I have lately been playing Italian duets with a mandolinist, and I have learned to dial the clarinet down to where the voices match. Jordan's band always sounds great, but the mandolin and clarinet are aware of their sound and never compete.

    Saxophones are very different from clarinet - they seem to fill a room with no effort, and are very limited in what they can do at low volume. A mic will balance the volume for the acoustic, but the sustain of an electric might be a better match with horns.

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    Default Re: Mandolin playing lead with wind instruments?

    I've found that I get great mileage from listening piano in terms of getting inspiration for how to work with other instruments. The right hand melody fills and riffs are often very inspiring when you think them accross to the mandolin, while the left hand chord vamping is another great thought experiment for when you want that.

    My son plays trombone and that particular instrument and cornet work well when playing softer with guitar or mandolin. You need to let them off the leash though, at which point you can swithch to reinforcing the guitar rhythm (only if you're tight with the guitarist) or just bow out and make space until the balance shifts again. After all it's jazz, and good jazz is always shifting the colours in the tapestry.

    Maybe suggest the trumpet tries cornet for the different texture and ability to be soft and broader sounding than the focussed trumpet sound. I'd also recommend any mando player interested in getting their lips in goes for cornet, great instrument to cross-over to from mando in terms of mindset.
    Eoin



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    Default Re: Mandolin playing lead with wind instruments?



    Plenty of choro with mandolins and clarinets, saxes (tenors, altos & sopranos), accordions.

    Hamilton de Hollanda and, I think also Dudu Maya, frequently front up bands with horns.

    Will Patton often plays with a clarinet.

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    Default Re: Mandolin playing lead with wind instruments?

    Apart from amplification there is the question of keys for horns and keys for plucked strings. It probably shouldn't be the case but horns tend to be more at home in the keys with flats and mandolins in the keys with sharps in the key signature . Not by any means a deal breaker but something to bear in mind when choosing songs to start out with. Concert E & A - pretty common in blues and pop and allowing mandolins to ring out - will be a stretch for some sax players while keys like Ab and Db which are common in jazz will probably (even allowing for FFCP) be unfamiliar and (if using charts) hard to sight read for many mandolin players.

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    Default Re: Mandolin playing lead with wind instruments?

    It is always, ALWAYS, a thrill to see Jordan Ramsey play.
    Mike Snyder

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    Registered User Martin Ohrt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolin playing lead with wind instruments?

    Thank you all for your tips and comments so far!

    Quote Originally Posted by des View Post
    Apart from amplification there is the question of keys for horns and keys for plucked strings. It probably shouldn't be the case but horns tend to be more at home in the keys with flats and mandolins in the keys with sharps in the key signature . Not by any means a deal breaker but something to bear in mind when choosing songs to start out with. Concert E & A - pretty common in blues and pop and allowing mandolins to ring out - will be a stretch for some sax players while keys like Ab and Db which are common in jazz will probably (even allowing for FFCP) be unfamiliar and (if using charts) hard to sight read for many mandolin players.
    Well, our repertoire is already "fixed" and tailored to horns. After all, we talk about a "standard" jazz band... It's just for that special occasion that I'd like to "leave" my rhythm-player-job and play lead...
    Anyhow, I'm used to those flat keys.


    Quote Originally Posted by des View Post


    Plenty of choro with mandolins and clarinets, saxes (tenors, altos & sopranos), accordions.

    Hamilton de Hollanda and, I think also Dudu Maya, frequently front up bands with horns.

    Will Patton often plays with a clarinet.
    Very nice! Again something to listen to


    Quote Originally Posted by CarlM View Post
    I have had some nice jam sessions with a saxophone player, also with accordion players. I am not sure about brass, that might be too much but a respectful sax player can be fun to play along with.

    Django Reinhardt did quite a few recordings with clarinetist Hubert Rostaing during the war and just after when he and Stefane Grapelli were on opposite sides of the water.
    Well, in general, "my" sax player tends to play softly... but then I still have to deal with drums and piano
    I'll try and check out these Django recordings, I should have them somewhere...


    Quote Originally Posted by ralph johansson View Post
    Good idea, I'll try and get my hands on the record.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beanzy View Post
    I've found that I get great mileage from listening piano in terms of getting inspiration for how to work with other instruments. The right hand melody fills and riffs are often very inspiring when you think them accross to the mandolin, while the left hand chord vamping is another great thought experiment for when you want that.

    My son plays trombone and that particular instrument and cornet work well when playing softer with guitar or mandolin. You need to let them off the leash though, at which point you can swithch to reinforcing the guitar rhythm (only if you're tight with the guitarist) or just bow out and make space until the balance shifts again. After all it's jazz, and good jazz is always shifting the colours in the tapestry.

    Maybe suggest the trumpet tries cornet for the different texture and ability to be soft and broader sounding than the focussed trumpet sound. I'd also recommend any mando player interested in getting their lips in goes for cornet, great instrument to cross-over to from mando in terms of mindset.
    There, you offer some very nice ideas, too! But, in this case, I can't reinforce the guitar rhythm, because I am the "guitarist" (using the electric octave). Normally, I wouldn't have to play lead, as this is done by our trumpeter. As long as he's present, there's no need for me to play melody.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Morton View Post
    I play clarinet in various settings with string players, and in others with brasses and saxophones. I have come to think of clarinet as a special case - I can play it in a chamber setting without overpowering the strings by exerting some control, sacrificing some dynamic range. With jazz combos reinforcement is a must, and all the more if it's a mandolin. I like a clip-on mic for the maximum gain.

    I have lately been playing Italian duets with a mandolinist, and I have learned to dial the clarinet down to where the voices match. Jordan's band always sounds great, but the mandolin and clarinet are aware of their sound and never compete.

    Saxophones are very different from clarinet - they seem to fill a room with no effort, and are very limited in what they can do at low volume. A mic will balance the volume for the acoustic, but the sustain of an electric might be a better match with horns.
    That's what I think, too... I don't own a clip-on, but I would tend to use the electric anyways. The only thing that bothers me is the deep register of the electric; I generally prefer the high register of the mandolin for playing lead.
    Mandolins: 1920s (?) Meinel & Herold Bowlback, 2006 Furch "Redwood MA-1" A5

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    String-Bending Heretic mandocrucian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolin playing lead with wind instruments?

    Playing with horns? Tune it a half step up or down. Tune down to F and you're in 1flat rather than 1#. Those horn guys are playing in "their" ease-of-play equivalents to A, D, G & C on a mando or guitar.

    Want to turn the tables on them....call the tune and the key in E or B, and watch them stumble around for a change

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    Default Re: Mandolin playing lead with wind instruments?

    We had horn players sit in with our guitar/mandolin/upright bass swing trio for a while. I often didn't like it- the wind or brass instruments dominate even with tasteful playing. It reminded me of when a fiddle plays active lines behind a mandolin or guitar solo in bluegrass in that it just naturally swamps everything. This was just my opinion, though.

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    Default Re: Mandolin playing lead with wind instruments?

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Ohrt View Post
    Hi everyone,
    has somebody here heard of a mandolinist (or a guitarist) who played lead in a jazz band with wind instruments?
    I'm looking for some inspiration on this topic...
    Hi I`m brazilian and here in Brazil we have a lot of good mandolinists, this is our "Ed Van Halen" called Armandinho playing his electric mandolin with a wind instruments orchestra:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mdYsuPnLJs


    Hugs from Rio!!!

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    Registered User Pete Martin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolin playing lead with wind instruments?

    Play in normal tuning and take advantage of what those keys offer. Many cool Jazz lines i think are easier to play in the flat keys.

    When I play with drums and horn/wind players, I almost always play 5 string electric. Its just easier to get up to higher volume levels and I like the sound of that instrument better. When I play with other acoustic string players, I play 8 string acoustic.

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    Default Re: Mandolin playing lead with wind instruments?

    Quote Originally Posted by des View Post
    Apart from amplification there is the question of keys for horns and keys for plucked strings. It probably shouldn't be the case but horns tend to be more at home in the keys with flats and mandolins in the keys with sharps in the key signature . Not by any means a deal breaker but something to bear in mind when choosing songs to start out with. Concert E & A - pretty common in blues and pop and allowing mandolins to ring out - will be a stretch for some sax players while keys like Ab and Db which are common in jazz will probably (even allowing for FFCP) be unfamiliar and (if using charts) hard to sight read for many mandolin players.
    To my mind at least the first four flat keys, F, Bb, Eb, and Ab, sit very well on the mandolin. Eb, for instance, is really more comfortable than, say, E, in open position (up the neck the two are equivalent, of course). And in keys like D and A, open strings tend to get in the way (I want control). The late John McGann used to say that mandolin is not "about" open strings. Of course jazz players should be familiar with all major keys. If you play Cherokee, All the Things, and Body and Soul, according to standard editions, you will visit ten different keys, only F and F# missing.

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    Registered User Martin Ohrt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolin playing lead with wind instruments?

    Playing in the "flat keys" is no problem for me, I'm in this Jazzband long enough to be familiar with them

    Quote Originally Posted by mauriciotavares View Post
    Hi I`m brazilian and here in Brazil we have a lot of good mandolinists, this is our "Ed Van Halen" called Armandinho playing his electric mandolin with a wind instruments orchestra:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mdYsuPnLJs


    Hugs from Rio!!!
    Very cool! The guitarra baiana is tuned CGDAE like a mandolin with a low C string, isn't it?
    Mandolins: 1920s (?) Meinel & Herold Bowlback, 2006 Furch "Redwood MA-1" A5

    Octaves: 2004 Fender FMO-66 Flat-Top, 2015 A. Karperien 5 String Electric

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