Results 1 to 24 of 24

Thread: tuning stabiity

  1. #1
    Registered User Bad Monkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    178

    Default tuning stabiity

    got a last second call for a fill-in last night so I grabbed the first thing smoking and headed downtown. Well, actually, I ran over a couple blocks and jumped on the light rail and zipped on down. Ended up taking my Eastman 614 mostly because it was sitting on the ottoman in the case and the F4 was sitting on the other side of the room. Really was a last second call. Didn't even change, just jumped in a pair of shoes and split.

    But I digress. Point of the story is that when I got to the pub, the fiddle player grabs me and we scoot to the stage. I barely have time to open the case before the first jig set is rolling. I never tuned up. never thought about it. Didn't tune up until after the second break. So I ran out the door with an untuned mandolin, took a 20 mn trip downtown, played two 45 mn sets before I checked if I was even in tune. Turns out I was!?! I had tuned the eastman that afternoon but that kind of stability is crazy. Strings aren't too new on her, have been on about 4 weeks or so but I haven't gigged her since, only a handful of days practice time.

    So my question is what are your experiences with tuning stability with these newer mandolins? The F4 is pretty stable but would not have put up with that stunt. If the new tuners are that much betterer I may think about replacing the tuners on the F4.

  2. #2

    Default Re: tuning stabiity

    Why wouldn't it be (mostly) in tune? I don't always need to tune my instruments, especially if they have been tuned within a day or so.

  3. #3
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Upstate New York
    Posts
    24,807
    Blog Entries
    56

    Default Re: tuning stabiity

    Most of my instruments are mostly in tune most of the time.
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

    The entire staff
    funny....

  4. The following members say thank you to JeffD for this post:

    chuck3 

  5. #4
    Registered User Bad Monkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    178

    Default Re: tuning stabiity

    Well I'm def. checking into a tuner upgrade then. My F4 would need a couple twists after running downtown in the cold.

  6. #5
    Registered User jmkatcher's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Puget Sound, Washington
    Posts
    676

    Default Re: tuning stabiity

    My older Rigel with Grovers is at least that stable, once the strings have been broken in of course.

  7. #6
    Middle-Aged Old-Timer Tobin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Kerrville, TX
    Posts
    4,004

    Default Re: tuning stabiity

    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Monkey View Post
    Well I'm def. checking into a tuner upgrade then. My F4 would need a couple twists after running downtown in the cold.
    I doubt it has anything to do with your tuners. It's the body of the mandolin itself (and neck, of course) that will be affected by temperature and humidity changes, causing tuning instability when leaving the house. The finer the build of a mandolin, the thinner the plates, the better tone they get - but it comes at the cost of dimensional stability. You can build a mandolin like a tank, and it will hold tuning very well, but not sound as good.

    Eastmans, like most imported mandolins, are overbuilt. Hence, better tuning stability.

  8. The following members say thank you to Tobin for this post:


  9. #7
    Registered User Bad Monkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    178

    Default Re: tuning stabiity

    That makes sense. Gotta be a big chunk of it right there. I've got a 66 tele that's a brick s-house that stays in tune until you take the strings off her. Although I'm sure the ancient tuners on the F4 aren't helping; there's a lot of slop in 'em. I'm not worried about originality since they were replaced long ago, most likely in the '20s.

  10. #8
    Registered User mandobassman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Delran, NJ
    Posts
    2,921

    Default Re: tuning stabiity

    My J Bovier is in tune almost every time I take it out of the case. Even if I don't play it for days. My strings are about a year-and-a-half old and that hasn't seemed to make a difference either.
    Larry Hunsberger

    2013 J Bovier A5 Special w/ToneGard
    D'Addario FW-74 flatwound strings
    1909 Weymann&Sons bowlback
    1919 Weymann&Sons mandolute
    Ibanez PF5
    1993 Oriente HO-20 hybrid double bass
    3/4 guitar converted to octave mandolin

  11. #9
    coprolite mandroid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Outer Spiral Arm, of Galaxy, NW Oregon.
    Posts
    17,103

    Default Re: tuning stabiity

    One of the benefits of the Carbon Fiber Mix, is even with the humidity and temperature changes
    that cause wooden instruments to swell and shrink, and thus change tuning slightly,

    not being moisture sensitive the Composite is quite stable.

    As mentioned elsewhere, the shorter scale length has tiny changes more noticeable
    than, if it was a long Scale like a Guitar..



    ...
    writing about music
    is like dancing,
    about architecture

  12. #10
    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Rochester NY 14610
    Posts
    17,378

    Default Re: tuning stabiity

    You lucked out; the environment at the gig was pretty much like the environment in your home, and the light-rail trip didn't expose the MD-614 to any temperature extremes. And, possibly, you don't dig into your strings with great force, or "bend" strings a lot, both of which can untune your instrument.

    I find the greatest "tuning instability" is bringing instruments out of my relatively cool, humid basement "music room," to a playing space that's at a much different temperature or humidity. Taking them to an outdoor venue, for example, guarantees I'll need to do some pretty extensive retuning; direct sunlight can heat up instruments almost instantly, and that clip-on tuner gets a workout -- complicated by the fact that a lot of clip-ons are hard to read in direct sunlight!

    Congratulations on your good luck, and don't expect you'll be that fortunate every time.
    Allen Hopkins
    Gibsn: '54 F5 3pt F2 A-N Custm K1 m'cello
    Natl Triolian Dobro mando
    Victoria b-back Merrill alumnm b-back
    H-O mandolinetto
    Stradolin Vega banjolin
    Sobell'dola Washburn b-back'dola
    Eastmn: 615'dola 805 m'cello
    Flatiron 3K OM

  13. The following members say thank you to allenhopkins for this post:


  14. #11
    Registered User Bad Monkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    178

    Default Re: tuning stabiity

    It doesn't help that I'm annoyingly fussy about intonation and tuning in general. I'm lucky that my regular band supports my obsession. Even the drummer. Tuesday night he asked me if on of the strings of my A course on the zouk was out. He was right although I'm sure we wasn't just winding me up and got lucky...

  15. #12
    Registered User Bad Monkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    178

    Default Re: tuning stabiity

    Quote Originally Posted by allenhopkins View Post
    You lucked out; the environment at the gig was pretty much like the environment in your home, and the light-rail trip didn't expose the MD-614 to any temperature extremes. And, possibly, you don't dig into your strings with great force, or "bend" strings a lot, both of which can untune your instrument.

    I find the greatest "tuning instability" is bringing instruments out of my relatively cool, humid basement "music room," to a playing space that's at a much different temperature or humidity. Taking them to an outdoor venue, for example, guarantees I'll need to do some pretty extensive retuning; direct sunlight can heat up instruments almost instantly, and that clip-on tuner gets a workout -- complicated by the fact that a lot of clip-ons are hard to read in direct sunlight!

    Congratulations on your good luck, and don't expect you'll be that fortunate every time.
    In 35 years of playing out I've never gotten that lucky tuning-wise. There's always a tweak or two at least.

  16. The following members say thank you to Bad Monkey for this post:


  17. #13
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Upstate New York
    Posts
    24,807
    Blog Entries
    56

    Default Re: tuning stabiity

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobin View Post
    I doubt it has anything to do with your tuners. It's the body of the mandolin itself (and neck, of course) that will be affected by temperature and humidity changes, causing tuning instability when leaving the house. The finer the build of a mandolin, the thinner the plates, the better tone they get - but it comes at the cost of dimensional stability. You can build a mandolin like a tank, and it will hold tuning very well, but not sound as good.

    Eastmans, like most imported mandolins, are overbuilt. Hence, better tuning stability.
    I am not sure I entirely agree. I think all things being equal a fine instrument will in general hold its tuning better. But in a test like this, traveling here and there, the quality of the case itself, and as Allen points out, the climate (temperature and humidity) at the destination point, have a lot of impact.

    I am astonished at how well my best mandolins stay in tune.
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

    The entire staff
    funny....

  18. #14
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Va
    Posts
    2,573

    Default Re: tuning stabiity

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    I am not sure I entirely agree. I think all things being equal a fine instrument will in general hold its tuning better. But in a test like this, traveling here and there, the quality of the case itself, and as Allen points out, the climate (temperature and humidity) at the destination point, have a lot of impact.

    I am astonished at how well my best mandolins stay in tune.
    I think what Tobin was saying was a "lighter" built mandolin is affected more by temp. and humidity and I think he's right. I can see where good case would control the temp. and humidity better than a poor one and thus slow down the changes. I know my Dearstone is the best mandolin I've owned and is most affected by temp. and humidity

  19. #15
    Middle-Aged Old-Timer Tobin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Kerrville, TX
    Posts
    4,004

    Default Re: tuning stabiity

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandoplumb View Post
    I think what Tobin was saying was a "lighter" built mandolin is affected more by temp. and humidity and I think he's right. I can see where good case would control the temp. and humidity better than a poor one and thus slow down the changes. I know my Dearstone is the best mandolin I've owned and is most affected by temp. and humidity
    Yes, that's what I was getting at. Thinner plates are more flexible; that's a fact. They will deflect more when strings get cold and contract, compared to thicker plates. They also react more quickly to environmental factors because they have less mass. My best mandolins are the most reactive to the environment, compared to the starter import I used to own, which was way overbuilt.

    There will always be plenty of other variables at play, but I think this is a big part of it.

  20. #16
    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Manchester - Lancashire - NW England
    Posts
    14,187

    Default Re: tuning stabiity

    I noticed within a few weeks of begining playing just how much a mandolin can be affected by room temps. These days,even if i couldn't see outside my home,i could almost tell what the weather's like by testing the tuning on one of my mandolins. Sharp = cold(er) / flat = warm(er). Humidity doesn't play much of a part in my home unless we have a very warm,humid summer.
    In a period of weather that's pretty stable,my mandolins will stay in tune for many days at a time,
    Ivan
    Weber F-5 'Fern'.
    Lebeda F-5 "Special".
    Stelling Bellflower BANJO
    Tokai - 'Tele-alike'.
    Ellis DeLuxe "A" style.

  21. #17
    Registered User Tavy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Tavistock UK
    Posts
    4,438

    Default Re: tuning stabiity

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan Kelsall View Post
    In a period of weather that's pretty stable,my mandolins will stay in tune for many days at a time,
    Ivan
    Exactly, stable weather = stable tuning.

    Normally mine are stable for days at a time, but last night I had the opposite experience to the OP - a day of cold wet stormy weather had left me about a 1/4 semi-tone sharp everywhere. Even the e-strings which I can normally go weeks without ever having to touch were way out (a-strings are a whole other story though).

  22. The following members say thank you to Tavy for this post:


  23. #18
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    atlanta ga
    Posts
    485

    Default Re: tuning stabiity

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandoplumb View Post
    I think what Tobin was saying was a "lighter" built mandolin is affected more by temp. and humidity and I think he's right. I can see where good case would control the temp. and humidity better than a poor one and thus slow down the changes. I know my Dearstone is the best mandolin I've owned and is most affected by temp. and humidity

    That's what I always thought. However, I have a 1944 D-18 that is the lightest dreadnought guitar you will likely encounter. It even has the wartime ebony truss rod. Yet, for whatever reason, the tuning stays remarkably stable through temperature and humidity changes.
    By comparison, I have a, much more robustly built, 1965 D-18 that lives in the same room. It behaves as one would expect. Goes flat when it gets warmer, sharp when the temp drops. I don't really have an explanation.

  24. #19
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    4,786

    Default Re: tuning stabiity

    The gods of gigging have smiled brightly upon you! Do not question their generosity, but receive it with gratitude and humility!!!

    I have an Eastman 315 that's a great little mandolin. Not quite as complex in tone as my Silverangel or MT, but not far off, either. My only complaint is that the tuners aren't terribly stable. I'm actually thinking about upgrading them. Your 614 has better hardware than mine, clearly (as advertised). The SA and MT stay pretty stable as long as temp/humidity changes aren't extreme.
    Chuck

  25. #20
    Registered User Bad Monkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    178

    Default Re: tuning stabiity

    overall I'm pretty pleased with the 614. In a pub with a couple hundred rowdy Guinness fans playing through the PA I don't think anyone can hear the difference between the Eastman and the F4. Certainly the F4 sounds a bit sweeter in the studio but that would be a whole other barrel of monkeys.

  26. #21
    Capt. E Capt. E's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Austin, Texas
    Posts
    2,874

    Default Re: tuning stabiity

    Mostly when my tuning is off, it is usually limited to 2 or 3 strings. The E strings have fewer problems that the lower notes. It seems to happen mostly from temperature and humidity changes. If a string is really badly off, you may have a mechanical problem: nut and bridge slots, the tuning machine or the string itself.
    Jammin' south of the river
    '20 Gibson A-2
    Stromberg-Voisinet Tenor Guitar
    Penny Whistle
    My albums: http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/album.php?u=7616

  27. #22
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    S.W. Wisconsin
    Posts
    7,507

    Default Re: tuning stabiity

    My Brentrup is built quite heavy, you can't overdrive the top. Weather, moisture and all little things that exist affect my tuning. Some of my lighter mandolins hold better. I think thinner wood can swell less than a slightly thicker piece of wood.

    Another take on a subject that will have no answer.
    THE WORLD IS A BETTER PLACE JUST FOR YOUR SMILE!

  28. #23
    Registered User Bad Monkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    178

    Default Re: tuning stabiity

    kind of like the nitro/poly, rosewood/maple fretboard "discussions" that go on over at the fender forums...

  29. #24
    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Manchester - Lancashire - NW England
    Posts
    14,187

    Default Re: tuning stabiity

    Yesterday,i played my Ellis & it was a tiny bit 'flat'. Not surprising as the weather in the North of England has been wet but pretty mild in temp. I hadn't played the Ellis for a few days,so it didn't surprise me at all - it's what i've come to expect from any of them.

    Simply a fact of mando.life - time to move on !,
    Ivan
    Weber F-5 'Fern'.
    Lebeda F-5 "Special".
    Stelling Bellflower BANJO
    Tokai - 'Tele-alike'.
    Ellis DeLuxe "A" style.

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •