I think it best to continue our discussion here. My apologies to the OP of the other thread
Here is the text from that thread, and here is a link back to it
http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...-(-)-questions
I could not copy it all, so here is just the last few
Today,#10:37am
#34
Darryl Wolfe
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Re: 1924 A2Z (?) questions
Originally Posted by Henry Eagle
But still, I maintain that Joe's FON list is correct even for 1923, and that the above mentioned FONs 11919, 11971, 11985 are, indeed, from 1923. And especially that assumption would explain a lot. When Harry Ferris joined Gibson by Oct. 2nd 1923, we know that one of the first measures he took was putting a halt to overproduction. .
I'm sorry Henry, but I cannot agree. Yes, I agree that they changed in late '23 as far as their philosophy.
But I do not agree with Mr.Spanns list of FON's He clearly states 1917-1923 FON's as 11000 to 12000. But, he says it is from visual examination of instruments. He states no firm source other than opinion (of which I am simply stating mine)
The problem that flies in the face of his info is Catalog price lists and their issue date and Catalog listings for certain instruments. Now, we know it takes time to add and instrument to a catalog and publish a new one. But price lists were published fairly often and reflected new instruments.
If, we were to believe Spanns FON information at face value, then all Loars were made In 1923, including '22's and 24's (which obviously have signature labels in them) Now, I realize they could have been signed and serialized at any time. But, the information presented by Spann implies that A2z's were all made in '23, and dont't even show up on a price list until '24 nor a catalog until '25. The same goes for the obscure style 5's such as L, H and K which show up far later than their respective FON's
Spanns range of FON's covers 7 years for 11000 - 12000. For creativity let's extrapolate that over his time period. Let's assume 1917-1923 was fairly stable in production. That would be 1425 FON's a year. That would mean 1923 started off the year at 10575 and that truss rods did not show up until late '23, years after the patent. It would also mean that the mando-viola 70321, and FON 11721 is a '23 creation...later '23 at that. Now, Spanns serial number listing conveniently more or less agrees with common understanding during this period, and would date the mando-viola and all signed 22 Loars, dated '22 as '22 models.But by late 23, 24 and 25, his serial number list seems to derails a bit
How can that be if his FON list says the were built in at least mid to late '23. My extrapolation cannot be 60% off. Again, study the price lists that have actual dates on them
I have in my possession a purchase coupon/receipt for A style mandolin number 77762. It is dated the day after Christmas 1924. This is a 1 1/2 years before Mr. Spann indicates that serial number is issued. The date on the coupon fully is in line with conventional thinking on dates during the Loar period. And It fully supports the December 1, 1924 signature date for Loars and their respective 11985 FONs and 798xx serials. Now, just think, when was that purchased mandolin built. Being a higher sales model, probably not too long before purchase. But if we wish to argue that it could have been in the store for a long time...then this pushes things even further from what Mr. Spann is saying
There is one crack in the fence of my stand here. I do believe that it is possible that it took much longer to complete these batches of instruments than we think. We all know that the FON originated off of a consecutively number pad of paper that probably had multiple carbon copies
Someone decides that they need 24 A2z's. The FON at this point exists and is attached to what will become reality before it even makes it out onto the factory floor. We do not know the backlog, we do not know how long it takes to make them, and we do not know if varnished F5's have to hang for 4 months after they a brush finished. So it is very conceivable that the FON's did indeed originate in '23 that we are arguing over. But these situations are not factored into stated "construction" dates.
I much prefer to look at it from a finished instrument stand point and what FON is attached
Last edited by Darryl Wolfe; Today at 11:37am.
Darryl G. Wolfe, The F5 Journal
www.f5journal.com
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Today,#8:56am
#33
Timbofood
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Re: 1924 A2Z (?) questions
This is the kind of information I do so enjoy about this site! You guys have made such an in depth and "ONGOING" study of the information. The generosity, knowledge and, the civility with which it is shared is heartwarming. The humor isn't bad either!
Strong work, people!
Timothy F. Lewis
"If brains was lard, that boy couldn't grease a very big skillet" J.D. Clampett
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Today,#1:34am
#32
Henry Eagle
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Re: 1924 A2Z (?) questions
(It's sometimes late at night when I post, and I get confused.) Well, what I meant was, they drilled for the tuners, when the mando shipped. But in the case of #79719, they put a newer (later '20s worm over) set of tuners on an older ('24) Loar.
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