We hear a lot about how different F hole mandolins sound against Oval hole mandolins. Do Oval hole mandolins sound significantly different to round hole mandolins? (Just a thought).
We hear a lot about how different F hole mandolins sound against Oval hole mandolins. Do Oval hole mandolins sound significantly different to round hole mandolins? (Just a thought).
I never fail at anything, I just succeed at doing things that never work....
Fylde Touchstone Walnut Mandolin.
Gibson Alrite Model D.
Probably not. F-holes are stereo, oval holes are mono.
Isabel Mandolins
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Arche...50923841658006
I suspect it also depends on how big the hole is. I have a Martin D28 copy with a larger soundhole and it sounds completely different to one with the regular sized hole.
The recent study on the evolution of violin sound holes showed that the biggest changes had to do with the length of the perimeter of the hole. But as I recall, it was more about volume than tone. I don't know if an oval hole versus round hole versus D hole is enough of a change to be noticeable. Or indistinguishable from other differences in instruments that have these types of holes.
From my guitar experience, enlarging the soundhole decreases bass response in the tone -- its well more about hole area than shape. Googling heimholtz resonance will give you plenty to digest. Its just one piece of the tone equation.
Un stated, there is a difference in where the hole is placed, .... an oval hole in a flat top, ? which one?
Likewise.. round sound hole.
Vs an oval, or round hole in an arched top, and single cross braced , top, or one with an X bracing?
My Oval Hole flat top D'jangolin is conspicuously different from my 1922 A4..
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The shape of the hole/s makes little to no difference, the size of the hole/s (within reason) makes a little difference, the position of the holes makes a bigger difference in the sound of the instrument.
John Hamlett
www.hamlettinstruments.com
If you want to get an idea of how aperture size and shape affect the sound of any instrument, just use masking tape to temporarily change the size/shape of the sound hole(s). You can't make them bigger that way but by making them smaller, you can get an idea of what would happen if they were larger.
www.apitiusmandolins.com
What is good Phaedrus? and what is not good?, need we ask anyone to tell us these things?
Theres also a loss of stiffness if you make the holes bigger. Unless of course you plan on making the braces or top stiffer prior to enlarging the holes.
Isabel Mandolins
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Arche...50923841658006
Sound different to whom? You may perceive a distinct difference in sound quality while your audience may not, since all of the radiant energy available will summate six feet in front of the radiator/instrument. And remember, small differences in volume are often perceived as differences in sound quality.
John Hamlett
www.hamlettinstruments.com
All I know is that a round sound hole is a lot easier to make then an oval hole.
Charley
A bunch of stuff with four strings
In all honesty, on a recording or at a festival I have never been able to convincingly say "That's a .....hole mandolin". Bowlbacks yes, others no. This is not the same response I would have as a performer of sitting directly opposite.
It has more to do with image. Bluegrass players lean toward F-holes, Celtic players lean toward round and oval holes. Some of them seem to hear a difference, but it's lost on most listeners. Likewise F-style versus A-style. I don't think blindfolded people can tell one from the other, but a lot of players have distinct preferences. I call it listening with your eyes.
Same thing with guitars. I don't think you can tell whether a guitar is a cutaway or not by the sound (at least below the twelfth fret), but that doesn't stop players from having favorites.
There's a distinct difference in tone between oval and f-hole. Ovals have always sounded tubby, f-holes have a punchier tone, less tubby. Grisman's Tone Poems album illustrates this quite readily.
Isabel Mandolins
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Arche...50923841658006
While I have found some of the older Gibson ovals As to be "tubby", there is nothing tubby about any of the Collings ovals that I have played. My Hester is sweet and full, but not "tubby". I find most of the modern ovals to be more rounded and full, but not tubby and not just the "hybrids" (long neck with elevated fret boards). I think most modern makers have tried intentionally or not to avoid the "tubby" sound that fscotte refers to. All this being said, to me, ovals with old and tubby or new and rounds sound distinctly different, not better, than F holed mandolins. I have done some recordings of the same tunes, same setting, same musician, same pick, same strings and there is a quality to the ovals that stand out. While I cannot always pick an oval from a different oval or a F from another F, I can usually tell an oval from an F.
Tony Huber
1930 Martin Style C #14783
2011 Mowry GOM
2013 Hester F4 #31
2014 Ellis F5 #322
2017 Nyberg Mandola #172
Tubby is a descriptor that pertains to what I hear. Even modern ovals have a tubby quality, regardless what a builder does, an oval hole is an oval hole and that has a distinctive sound, whether it be tubby, full, round, etc.. It's always difficult to convey sound using descriptive terminology.
I think it was Dave Cohen, maybe Peter Coombe, who has data that oval holes have much lower Modes. This equates into a more tubby sound that is absent from fholes. So its not just what we feel is the difference between oval and fholes, its scientific data that proves it.
Isabel Mandolins
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Arche...50923841658006
I'd have to do some reviewing, I'm not sure about lower (frequency?) modes. The main differences are in the air modes, in particular the one Dave calls the "side to side sloshing mode" (one of my favorites... seen a lot late nights at festivals). The position of the hole/s relative that mode's air movement is definitely different in the two mandolin styles.
John Hamlett
www.hamlettinstruments.com
fscotte, could you explain what "much lower Modes" means? I am ignorant of what that term means. Thanks.
Tony Huber
1930 Martin Style C #14783
2011 Mowry GOM
2013 Hester F4 #31
2014 Ellis F5 #322
2017 Nyberg Mandola #172
Yes, there is quite a pronounced tonal difference between oval-hole and f-hole mandolins, but it derives in large part from the fact that the oval hole is situated right in the middle of the soundboard, shortening the wood in the center of the top and necessitating a cross brace, whereas the f-holes leave the center of the board intact. Steven Gilchrist's website has a pretty informative description of this at http://www.gilchristmandolins.com/design/ with the f-hole top being described as "portrait" and the oval-hole top as "landscape" in reference to the different sizes and shapes of the main vibrating surface.
This is simple. Acoustic vibration modes get assigned by their frequencies. The lowest modes correspond to resonances that ring (vibrate) at the lowest frequencies, and so on up the line. These resonant frequencies, in turn, are mainly determined by the motions of the plates and the air chamber, etc. Low-order modes involve larger-scale motions of the top. If you "freeze" these stroboscopically, you will see that comparatively large sections of the entire plate move together. As you go up in the mode frequency, smaller and smaller parts of the plate move together, across what are called "node lines", and the sections on opposite sides of a node line will move in opposite directions. And, of course, the number of moving sections increases, producing higher spatial frequencies that give rise to higher audio tones. The lowest-order mode, in fact, is sometimes called a "trampoline mode", because the entire plate moves up and down (from its edges) in concert. Hope that helps!
From many previous posts on the topic, I'm much more in Sunburst's camp on this. The position of the bridge on the body and somewhat of the hole influences sound.
Assuming the scale length is the same for the following.
A short neck means the body joins the neck around fret 10 pulling the bridge towards the neck from center.
A longer neck joins around fret 12 pushing the bridge towards the tailpiece from center.
The longer neck mandolins more often have an elevated fingerboard than the short necks which have a fingerboard flush to the top plate. Both impact how the top vibrates and changes tone.
I'm no physicist nor have I read much on modes. I'll let those who have comment there.
A short neck oval hole instrument on an arched plate with an integral fingerboard will sound different from a long neck ff holed instrument with an elevated board.
Many folks who have the Collings Oval hole describe their voices as a hybrid between the two I describe above as the oval hole is on a long necked, with elevated finger board arched top.
Jamie
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Given the same scale length, a longer neck joining at a higher fret pulls the bridge forward, toward the nut end of the instrument.
Dale Ludewig
http://www.ludewigmandolins.com
If there is a difference, it is much less of a difference than with ff holes. I have not experienced a gigantic difference between hole sizes and shapes, except to say that all mandolins sound different and how much of that difference can be attributed to the hole size and shape I don't know.
FF holes are a different matter, not only can I hear the difference, I can hear the same difference, with different mandolins. Different thing entirely.
As a followup to Mr. Hamlett's comment on the importance of hole position, has anyone here heard Allan Beardsell's edge ports with an almost uninterrupted top plate?
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