Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 37

Thread: Hole type ?

  1. #1
    Registered User G7MOF's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Lancashire/UK
    Posts
    1,411

    Default Hole type ?

    We hear a lot about how different F hole mandolins sound against Oval hole mandolins. Do Oval hole mandolins sound significantly different to round hole mandolins? (Just a thought).
    I never fail at anything, I just succeed at doing things that never work....


    Fylde Touchstone Walnut Mandolin.
    Gibson Alrite Model D.

  2. #2
    Registered User fscotte's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Zanesville, Ohio
    Posts
    2,490

    Default Re: Hole type ?

    Probably not. F-holes are stereo, oval holes are mono.

  3. The following members say thank you to fscotte for this post:


  4. #3
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    High Peak - UK
    Posts
    4,172

    Default Re: Hole type ?

    I suspect it also depends on how big the hole is. I have a Martin D28 copy with a larger soundhole and it sounds completely different to one with the regular sized hole.

  5. #4
    Middle-Aged Old-Timer Tobin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Kerrville, TX
    Posts
    4,004

    Default Re: Hole type ?

    The recent study on the evolution of violin sound holes showed that the biggest changes had to do with the length of the perimeter of the hole. But as I recall, it was more about volume than tone. I don't know if an oval hole versus round hole versus D hole is enough of a change to be noticeable. Or indistinguishable from other differences in instruments that have these types of holes.

  6. The following members say thank you to Tobin for this post:


  7. #5

    Default Re: Hole type ?

    From my guitar experience, enlarging the soundhole decreases bass response in the tone -- its well more about hole area than shape. Googling heimholtz resonance will give you plenty to digest. Its just one piece of the tone equation.

  8. The following members say thank you to jhowell for this post:


  9. #6
    coprolite mandroid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Outer Spiral Arm, of Galaxy, NW Oregon.
    Posts
    17,103

    Default Re: Hole type ?

    Un stated, there is a difference in where the hole is placed, .... an oval hole in a flat top, ? which one?

    Likewise.. round sound hole.

    Vs an oval, or round hole in an arched top, and single cross braced , top, or one with an X bracing?

    My Oval Hole flat top D'jangolin is conspicuously different from my 1922 A4..




    writing about music
    is like dancing,
    about architecture

  10. #7
    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    15,863

    Default Re: Hole type ?

    The shape of the hole/s makes little to no difference, the size of the hole/s (within reason) makes a little difference, the position of the holes makes a bigger difference in the sound of the instrument.

  11. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to sunburst For This Useful Post:


  12. #8

    Default Re: Hole type ?

    If you want to get an idea of how aperture size and shape affect the sound of any instrument, just use masking tape to temporarily change the size/shape of the sound hole(s). You can't make them bigger that way but by making them smaller, you can get an idea of what would happen if they were larger.
    www.apitiusmandolins.com

    What is good Phaedrus? and what is not good?, need we ask anyone to tell us these things?

  13. #9
    Registered User fscotte's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Zanesville, Ohio
    Posts
    2,490

    Default Re: Hole type ?

    Theres also a loss of stiffness if you make the holes bigger. Unless of course you plan on making the braces or top stiffer prior to enlarging the holes.

  14. #10
    Registered User Vincent Capostagno's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Brick, NJ
    Posts
    80

    Default Re: Hole type ?

    Sound different to whom? You may perceive a distinct difference in sound quality while your audience may not, since all of the radiant energy available will summate six feet in front of the radiator/instrument. And remember, small differences in volume are often perceived as differences in sound quality.

  15. The following members say thank you to Vincent Capostagno for this post:


  16. #11
    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    15,863

    Default Re: Hole type ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent Capostagno View Post
    Sound different to whom? You may perceive a distinct difference in sound quality while your audience may not, since all of the radiant energy available will summate six feet in front of the radiator/instrument. And remember, small differences in volume are often perceived as differences in sound quality.
    Can you not hear (in the audience) the difference between an oval hole (one hole on the center line of the top) and an f-hole (two holes, on to each side of the bridge) mandolin? It is not the shape of the holes that makes the difference, it is the position.

  17. The following members say thank you to sunburst for this post:


  18. #12
    Registered User Charles E.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Saint Augustine Beach FL
    Posts
    6,633

    Default Re: Hole type ?

    All I know is that a round sound hole is a lot easier to make then an oval hole.
    Charley

    A bunch of stuff with four strings

  19. #13
    Registered User Vincent Capostagno's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Brick, NJ
    Posts
    80

    Default Re: Hole type ?

    In all honesty, on a recording or at a festival I have never been able to convincingly say "That's a .....hole mandolin". Bowlbacks yes, others no. This is not the same response I would have as a performer of sitting directly opposite.

  20. #14
    Registered User Charlie Bernstein's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Augusta, Maine, USA
    Posts
    1,814

    Default Re: Hole type ?

    It has more to do with image. Bluegrass players lean toward F-holes, Celtic players lean toward round and oval holes. Some of them seem to hear a difference, but it's lost on most listeners. Likewise F-style versus A-style. I don't think blindfolded people can tell one from the other, but a lot of players have distinct preferences. I call it listening with your eyes.

    Same thing with guitars. I don't think you can tell whether a guitar is a cutaway or not by the sound (at least below the twelfth fret), but that doesn't stop players from having favorites.

  21. #15
    Registered User fscotte's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Zanesville, Ohio
    Posts
    2,490

    Default Re: Hole type ?

    There's a distinct difference in tone between oval and f-hole. Ovals have always sounded tubby, f-holes have a punchier tone, less tubby. Grisman's Tone Poems album illustrates this quite readily.

  22. The following members say thank you to fscotte for this post:


  23. #16
    Registered User red7flag's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Dickson, TN
    Posts
    3,292

    Default Re: Hole type ?

    While I have found some of the older Gibson ovals As to be "tubby", there is nothing tubby about any of the Collings ovals that I have played. My Hester is sweet and full, but not "tubby". I find most of the modern ovals to be more rounded and full, but not tubby and not just the "hybrids" (long neck with elevated fret boards). I think most modern makers have tried intentionally or not to avoid the "tubby" sound that fscotte refers to. All this being said, to me, ovals with old and tubby or new and rounds sound distinctly different, not better, than F holed mandolins. I have done some recordings of the same tunes, same setting, same musician, same pick, same strings and there is a quality to the ovals that stand out. While I cannot always pick an oval from a different oval or a F from another F, I can usually tell an oval from an F.
    Tony Huber
    1930 Martin Style C #14783
    2011 Mowry GOM
    2013 Hester F4 #31
    2014 Ellis F5 #322
    2017 Nyberg Mandola #172

  24. #17
    Registered User fscotte's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Zanesville, Ohio
    Posts
    2,490

    Default Re: Hole type ?

    Tubby is a descriptor that pertains to what I hear. Even modern ovals have a tubby quality, regardless what a builder does, an oval hole is an oval hole and that has a distinctive sound, whether it be tubby, full, round, etc.. It's always difficult to convey sound using descriptive terminology.

    I think it was Dave Cohen, maybe Peter Coombe, who has data that oval holes have much lower Modes. This equates into a more tubby sound that is absent from fholes. So its not just what we feel is the difference between oval and fholes, its scientific data that proves it.

  25. The following members say thank you to fscotte for this post:


  26. #18
    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    15,863

    Default Re: Hole type ?

    Quote Originally Posted by fscotte View Post
    I think it was Dave Cohen, maybe Peter Coombe, who has data that oval holes have much lower Modes.
    I'd have to do some reviewing, I'm not sure about lower (frequency?) modes. The main differences are in the air modes, in particular the one Dave calls the "side to side sloshing mode" (one of my favorites... seen a lot late nights at festivals). The position of the hole/s relative that mode's air movement is definitely different in the two mandolin styles.

  27. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to sunburst For This Useful Post:


  28. #19
    Registered User red7flag's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Dickson, TN
    Posts
    3,292

    Default Re: Hole type ?

    fscotte, could you explain what "much lower Modes" means? I am ignorant of what that term means. Thanks.
    Tony Huber
    1930 Martin Style C #14783
    2011 Mowry GOM
    2013 Hester F4 #31
    2014 Ellis F5 #322
    2017 Nyberg Mandola #172

  29. #20

    Default Re: Hole type ?

    Yes, there is quite a pronounced tonal difference between oval-hole and f-hole mandolins, but it derives in large part from the fact that the oval hole is situated right in the middle of the soundboard, shortening the wood in the center of the top and necessitating a cross brace, whereas the f-holes leave the center of the board intact. Steven Gilchrist's website has a pretty informative description of this at http://www.gilchristmandolins.com/design/ with the f-hole top being described as "portrait" and the oval-hole top as "landscape" in reference to the different sizes and shapes of the main vibrating surface.

  30. The following members say thank you to Richard Mott for this post:


  31. #21
    Registered User sblock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Redwood City, CA
    Posts
    2,335

    Default Re: Hole type ?

    Quote Originally Posted by red7flag View Post
    fscotte, could you explain what "much lower Modes" means? I am ignorant of what that term means. Thanks.
    This is simple. Acoustic vibration modes get assigned by their frequencies. The lowest modes correspond to resonances that ring (vibrate) at the lowest frequencies, and so on up the line. These resonant frequencies, in turn, are mainly determined by the motions of the plates and the air chamber, etc. Low-order modes involve larger-scale motions of the top. If you "freeze" these stroboscopically, you will see that comparatively large sections of the entire plate move together. As you go up in the mode frequency, smaller and smaller parts of the plate move together, across what are called "node lines", and the sections on opposite sides of a node line will move in opposite directions. And, of course, the number of moving sections increases, producing higher spatial frequencies that give rise to higher audio tones. The lowest-order mode, in fact, is sometimes called a "trampoline mode", because the entire plate moves up and down (from its edges) in concert. Hope that helps!

  32. The following members say thank you to sblock for this post:


  33. #22
    Moderator JEStanek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Pottstown, Pennsylvania, United States
    Posts
    14,284
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default Re: Hole type ?

    From many previous posts on the topic, I'm much more in Sunburst's camp on this. The position of the bridge on the body and somewhat of the hole influences sound.

    Assuming the scale length is the same for the following.
    A short neck means the body joins the neck around fret 10 pulling the bridge towards the neck from center.

    A longer neck joins around fret 12 pushing the bridge towards the tailpiece from center.
    The longer neck mandolins more often have an elevated fingerboard than the short necks which have a fingerboard flush to the top plate. Both impact how the top vibrates and changes tone.

    I'm no physicist nor have I read much on modes. I'll let those who have comment there.

    A short neck oval hole instrument on an arched plate with an integral fingerboard will sound different from a long neck ff holed instrument with an elevated board.

    Many folks who have the Collings Oval hole describe their voices as a hybrid between the two I describe above as the oval hole is on a long necked, with elevated finger board arched top.

    Jamie
    There are two things to aim at in life: first, to get what you want; and, after that, to enjoy it. Only the wisest of mankind achieve the second. Logan Pearsall Smith, 1865 - 1946

    + Give Blood, Save a Life +

  34. The following members say thank you to JEStanek for this post:


  35. #23
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    DeKalb, IL
    Posts
    3,633

    Default Re: Hole type ?

    Given the same scale length, a longer neck joining at a higher fret pulls the bridge forward, toward the nut end of the instrument.

  36. #24
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Upstate New York
    Posts
    24,807
    Blog Entries
    56

    Default Re: Hole type ?

    Quote Originally Posted by G7MOF View Post
    We hear a lot about how different F hole mandolins sound against Oval hole mandolins. Do Oval hole mandolins sound significantly different to round hole mandolins? (Just a thought).
    If there is a difference, it is much less of a difference than with ff holes. I have not experienced a gigantic difference between hole sizes and shapes, except to say that all mandolins sound different and how much of that difference can be attributed to the hole size and shape I don't know.

    FF holes are a different matter, not only can I hear the difference, I can hear the same difference, with different mandolins. Different thing entirely.
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

    The entire staff
    funny....

  37. #25
    Registered User Vincent Capostagno's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Brick, NJ
    Posts
    80

    Default Re: Hole type ?

    As a followup to Mr. Hamlett's comment on the importance of hole position, has anyone here heard Allan Beardsell's edge ports with an almost uninterrupted top plate?

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •