Fiddle Tune Speed

[Br1ck]

I'm working with a metronome to work some fiddle tunes up to speed, and my question is how fast is that. I recently heard four fiddlers playing Arkansas Traveler at 110bpm, as they told me later when I asked, and I can play it cleanly at about 100 bpn now, but some tunes like St Anne's real are at about 90 and I don't know if I'd like them played much faster, so how do you know?

I suppose faster and faster as an exercise to build skill is worthwhile, but musically, do you just do what sounds good to you?

[Fred Keller]

Play them wherever you want for yourself or at a jam that supports whatever speed you enjoy.

But if you ever play for a dance, you need to do reels (4/4 time tunes) at about 110 or up in order to get people jumping. That's a generally accepted speed. If you play Irish or other genres, speeds will vary depending on the dance (jigs, hornpipes, etc).

[jshane]

Personally, (and it is probably a minority opinion), I think there is such a thing as "too fast".

For me, for fiddle tunes and their derivatives, "fast enough" is at a good lively dance speed. And-- fast enough and CLEAN is way way better than faster and expressionless-- or worse, faster and sloppy.

[Randi Gormley]

Certainly the sessions I play at, the speed will vary depending on the skill level of the participants. And even among strong players, there may be regional differences in the speed of certain types of tunes. And playing for dancers adds another level. f'rinstance, hornpipes in one session I attend are faster than reels but at another, they're slower. Playing a slip jig in session is one speed, for dancers another. That's a way of saying "it depends."

[Dave Sheets]

Contra dances in our area seem to want reels at 116, plus or minus about 4 or so. I'd agree that a lot of tunes sound better slower than that, but slower doesn't work for the dances.

[Br1ck]

So 110 at least for dancing? I've got a way to go, but I knew that. I'm only eight months into this, and fairly well pleased with my progress. Thank God I've been flat picking guitar for a long time or I wouldn't have enough life left.

Maybe when I get to 110, 116,won't seem out of reach.

[Ivan Kelsall]

I agree totally with jshane !. When things get too fast,it becomes a 'thrash' !. The melody gets lost in a muddle of note as the players hang on for dear life, & most of us have heard that. I think that a 'comfortable tempo for us' is the best. I've mentioned on here many times what Bill Monroe told me personally when i met him in 1966 - ''Son,you goo too fast,you don't see much scenery''. That's stuck with me since then & 'too fast' isn't for me,
Ivan

[SincereCorgi]

Try to get at least 10 clicks faster than what you'll actually have to play, otherwise you feel like you're hanging on by your fingernails the whole time. I try to get comfortable to at least 120-ish for a standard fiddle tune. If you've got the time, try to work out a streamlined version that you can do easily at like 130 or 140, as it's a pain trying to execute ornaments and stuff at tempos that don't really allow it.

[Bertram Henze]

When others start to play along with you and then drop out one by one, then you know you're too fast.

There can be a runaway effect at work, too. A pair of players can bring that on:
- one with slight variations and instabilities in speed (typically a melody player)
- one quick to react to perceived increased speed and/or eager to add "feeling" by striking in advance (typically an accompanist)
Both will push each other to go faster and faster, but both are having a disturbed perception of time (or having a good time of disturbance).

[T.D.Nydn]

I have been in jam sessions where the ryhthm players seem to be in competition with each other,,,they keep speeding up throughout,,forgetting that people have to play lead,no meter at all and basically end up strumming at light speed like finishing 10 times faster than they started...also ..if your playing by yourself and the rest of everyone is just staring at you,then you might be playing to fast,,or to over the top,,or to fast and over the top...

[JeffD]

This, from a book of great tunes from Packie Manus Byrn's collection tunes from Donegal.

[Tobin]

There can be a runaway effect at work, too. A pair of players can bring that on:
- one with slight variations and instabilities in speed (typically a melody player)
- one quick to react to perceived increased speed and/or eager to add "feeling" by striking in advance (typically an accompanist)
Both will push each other to go faster and faster, but both are having a disturbed perception of time (or having a good time of disturbance).

I've noticed this happening. A lot. Two players trying to "find" each other's tempo will keep pushing the tempo up uncontrollably. And it's worth noting that many fiddle tunes require the fiddle to lead the downbeat by a smidge (either a full beat or a half beat). It's just one of those cool things that fiddles do. But rhythm players can often get confused by it and start rushing the downbeat themselves instead of keeping a rock-solid rhythm. This gets everybody a little off, so others rush to try to get back on the beat and it snowballs from there.

Having a steady bass player goes a long way here.

But that's really only applicable for tempo creep. Sometimes the tune is just started too fast to begin with. I'm guilty of it myself, especially when I lead into a tune with "potatoes". Once you've started in, it's too late to slow it down. It's always easy to speed up a tune, but slowing it down is never easy.

I don't think there's any rule for fiddle tune tempo. OK, well, playing for dances may have rules. But for just sitting around and jamming, a fiddle tune can be whatever you want it to be. Medium tempo works well for making it sound very musical and adding lots of ornamentation. But sometimes you just want to hoot and holler and stomp your foot while playing a ripping-fast fiddle tune. It's all good, as long as the group has the chops to play at that speed. And you know what? Sometimes it's a good thing to push people past their comfort level by playing faster. Just don't let it become competitive or some sort of confrontational challenge to others' skills. To make everyone happy, a fiddle tune can be played at a lower tempo a few times, then effectively ended for a short pause, then launched right back up at higher speed.

Not all fiddle tunes are created equal. And not all will sound their best at equal tempos. You should play them at the speeed you like, but be prepared to play them faster if you want to play with others who like them faster. I remember playing a public jam once where I launched into Black Mountain Rag at a speed I thought sounded peppy, which was probably somewhere around 100 BPM (200 BPM if you use 4/4 nomenclature). After we finished, the bass player laughed and said she had never heard it played that slow. They shamed me into playing it at about 120 BPM (240 in 4/4), where I was on the border of falling apart and had to leave a lot out, but they all agreed the tune was better at that speed. That taught me a valuable lesson.

I used to do a lot of my home playing at around 180 BPM where everything felt up-tempo but not rushed. I guess I fell into a pattern where I was mentally and musically locked in to this speed. But it really inhibited my ability to play, and to hear what was going on when others were playing faster than that. As my musical tastes drifted away from bluegrass and more towards old-time, I really started to LISTEN to the faster fiddle tunes. And tried to get the same energy in my playing. Nowadays, I feel more comfortable in the 220 BPM range for most fiddle tunes unless I really want to slow them down and make them soulful.

[foldedpath]

It's certainly possible to "steamroll" a fiddle tune and play it too fast, but I do think it's a good idea to practice your technique to the point where you can play at commonly accepted dance tempos, like circa 112 bpm (counting 2/2) for reels.

It's a reality check that you're not allowing yourself to be lazy about technique, especially if you ever play out with other musicians. If you can handle 112 bpm on a reel, then you'll be very relaxed and comfortable playing it slower with more expression. And you can probably push it a bit if you're in a group that's getting a little carried away.

This is my favorite video for explaining why tempos for jigs and reels evolved the way they did from the dance forms:

[Dan Adams]

Fiddle tunes are dance tunes. If the tune is playing too fast to dance to..

[Tobin]

Something else to consider is that you should look carefully at the version of the fiddle tune you're trying to play. A lot of mandolin adaptations of fiddle tunes are transcribed from professional players who are filling up the space with a blur of notes. These can be a far cry from the actual tune that others will know. I struggled with this for a few years, thinking that this particular version of a tune was how I had to play it. And it was tough to get all the notes played at full speed.

I love the mandolin, but there's a trend out there of making simple fiddle tunes "too melodic". When I started playing the fiddle, I took a fresh look at many of the fiddle tunes I knew, and discovered that I had learned versions that were not very traditional, and had been hot-rodded for showing off on a mandolin.

So if you are struggling to play a tune at full tempo, don't just think in terms of slowing down the tune. Think about the version, and how it can be streamlined to sound good at speed. Examine the actual fiddle version and see just how much extra you're trying to fit in there that isn't necessary. You probably can play the tune at speed if you play the tune as it was meant to be played by a fiddle, not a bluegrass mandolin professional.