Chris Thile on the subject in his own words. I wonder if he's speaking from experience?
Chris Thile on the subject in his own words. I wonder if he's speaking from experience?
I actually own and play a 1923 Snakehead A with a replacement neck that has a radiused fingerboard and EVO gold frets. It is an absolute monster and it sounds and plays like a million bucks.
Do it. Have John Hamlett do the work.
But maybe take a cue from banjo players and have the entire neck replaced so you can keep the old one?
-PJ
PJ Doland
1923 Gibson Snakehead A
I've never seen a 1923 A model with a neck that wide at the nut. Can you provide photos here before you do whatever you plan on doing?
Sounds like a holdover, my '22 has an 1 1/4" nut also. It's a paddle tho, but the nut width was 1 1/4" at the time
THE WORLD IS A BETTER PLACE JUST FOR YOUR SMILE!
Chris Thile is the model of perfect form, right and left hands. Amazing. Also, his opinion noted.
PJ, thanks for your comments. When Gilchrist replaced the neck on my A3 he said it was the proper thing to do rather than do modifications to the original neck. BTW the first neck had a poorly done fingerboard that Steve spotted instantly and insisted on taking it back home for repairs. I could not hear any difference once I got it back. Actually it sounded better because the bridge could be set up properly whereas with the first neck the bridge had to be at an extreme angle to compensate.
Also, I was up way late continuing to play this wonderful A2, what a wonderful sound it has. The strings are ancient so I'll be changing them today which will improve the sound. I'm feeling less like altering it because it just sounds so good as it is.
I spoke with Michael Lewis at length today and his position is 'don't mess with it'. Though he thought PJ's comment about changing out the whole neck and leaving the original intact was a consideration but cutting up the existing not so much.
Also, I can adjust!
Billy Packard
Gilchrist A3, 1993
Weber Fern, 2007
Stiver Fern, 1990
Gibson 1923 A2
Gibson 1921 H1 Mandola
Numerous wonderful guitars
It is yours to do with as you see fit. I do not think you would dishonor history by modifying it. If, however, you flip mandolins like many of us here on the Cafe, then don't do it as you would greatly reduce the re-sale value.
I had an old snakehead that sounded great but I hated the tiny frets and flat fretboard. I shelled out about $300 to put on new frets and fingerboard. I eventually sold the mandolin and lost more than the $300 modifications... live and learn.
Sam
Sam Lyman
Moscow, Idaho
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Its the Loar Era pixie dust. You don't want to inadvertently let any of that dust leak out.
Billy Packard
Gilchrist A3, 1993
Weber Fern, 2007
Stiver Fern, 1990
Gibson 1923 A2
Gibson 1921 H1 Mandola
Numerous wonderful guitars
Also the neck has a rather pronounced V-shape to it, coming to a point right where the thumb rests. I'm not too up on what the various shapes Gibson has made. Thile makes reference to that in the video above.
Billy
Billy Packard
Gilchrist A3, 1993
Weber Fern, 2007
Stiver Fern, 1990
Gibson 1923 A2
Gibson 1921 H1 Mandola
Numerous wonderful guitars
Interesting...I also have a '23 A2 that I love. However mine has a 1-1/8" nut — it is a snakehead. Is yours a paddlehead or a snakehead? I wonder when they changed the width of the neck at the nut.
I love playing mine. It is the perfect neck for me and if I ever have as luthier build a custom mandolin for me I would use that neck as the template. I have had that mandolin for over 30 years now. With the exception of my National RM-1 (and some bowlbacks) all my mandolins have 1-1/8" width at the nut and that is my preferred width. I can pay with wider but I have to adjust.
Jim
My Stream on Soundcloud
19th Century Tunes
Playing lately:
1924 Gibson A4 - 2018 Campanella A-5 - 2007 Brentrup A4C - 1915 Frank Merwin Ashley violin - Huss & Dalton DS - 1923 Gibson A2 black snakehead - '83 Flatiron A5-2 - 1939 Gibson L-00 - 1936 Epiphone Deluxe - 1928 Gibson L-5 - ca. 1890s Fairbanks Senator Banjo - ca. 1923 Vega Style M tenor banjo - ca. 1920 Weymann Style 25 Mandolin-Banjo - National RM-1
Jim,
Mine is a paddle-head, (see photo above). My Weber Fern and Gilchrist A3 are 1-1/8 and 1-3/32 respectively both with radius fretboards. I have seen Gibson paddlehead's made well into the 1930's- maybe later. One guy I know has a 1906 Gibson F2 that has a 1-1/8 nut. I have no idea who was making the nut width decisions but most of the oval hole Gibson's I've seen have had the wider nut.
Would you say the neck profile of your A2 is V shaped? or more round?
Billy
Billy Packard
Gilchrist A3, 1993
Weber Fern, 2007
Stiver Fern, 1990
Gibson 1923 A2
Gibson 1921 H1 Mandola
Numerous wonderful guitars
I just adapt to what i get.. in a couple cases the old favorites need refrets...
writing about music
is like dancing,
about architecture
Reference one of the Cafe's interviews with him when he discusses his Loars. He didn't necessarily change the neck shape, but he did radius the boards and he had the frets (fretboards?) replaced so they'd intonate correctly. The Loar boards were apparently off ever so slightly...
If you can adjust, leave it as is. But, if you just can't get used to the neck profile and nut spacing, fix it to your liking. Go in with eyes wide open, but go in! I've had the pleasure of playing 2 Loars, one at Carter's, a Virzi model, and one at Lowe Vintage in Burlington, NC. The Virzi was nice, but didn't blow my skirt up. The one at Lowes, however, which had some work done, is one of the top three mandolins I've played in my life.
My sister in law has a degree in Historic Preservation, and I'm very much a fan of preservation rather than restoration, so I really do get the opposing view, truly. But, if you've got one of the best Loar era mandolins in the world, and you don't play it because it's not comfortable to you, what's the point in having it? These instruments were meant to be played, not stuck on a shelf to represent instruments that "used to make great music."
Well, OK, I'll give you Bill's Loar and the HOF display...begrudgingly...
Chuck
I changed the fingerboard of my A2 to make it more playable.
-----------
Pete Martin
www.PeteMartin.info
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Pete, please tell me your story..
Billy
Billy Packard
Gilchrist A3, 1993
Weber Fern, 2007
Stiver Fern, 1990
Gibson 1923 A2
Gibson 1921 H1 Mandola
Numerous wonderful guitars
Well, it's not like you are removing a virzi from a Loar with a hammer and screwdriver...
http://www.mandolincafe.com/news/pub...s_001170.shtml
A quarter tone flat and a half a beat behind.
From Billy - " I'm feeling less like altering it because it just sounds so good as it is.". If that's the way things are going as you get used to it,that's the solution !. It's a glorious looking mandolin & having seen the photo. I doubt whether i'd change a whisker of it unless i simply found it way too hard to handle. I've got large hands & my problem 'should be' cramming finger tips the size of cat's paws onto a 1/1/8" neck - but it ain't !. I've learned to adapt my left hand positioning to cope, & i'd adapt my left hand to cope with that beauty that's for sure - it is very nice,
Ivan
PS - Those ''paddle head'' oval holes have gained my respect mainly from listening to the one that Robin Bullock plays.
Weber F-5 'Fern'.
Lebeda F-5 "Special".
Stelling Bellflower BANJO
Tokai - 'Tele-alike'.
Ellis DeLuxe "A" style.
There isn`t that much wood to be removed to get it to the width that you want so I don`t think it would change the tone all that much, if any...I vote to thin it down and put a new nut on it...Not a hard job to do that either...
Willie
JBovier ELS; Epiphone MM-50 VN; Epiphone MM-40L; Gretsch New Yorker G9310; Washburn M1SDLB;
Fender Nashville Deluxe Telecaster; Squier Modified Vintage Cabronita Telecaster; Gretsch 5420T; Fender Tim Armstrong Hellcat: Washburn Banjo B9; Ibanez RB 5string; Ibanez RB 4 string bass
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Sounds like you love that mandolin and would miss it if you let it go. I am with the go for it crowd. Whoever built that mandolin didn't intend for it to sit in its case unplayed. For some reason (or no reason at all) it wound up yours. It's not like you are planning on making it into a wall clock. THAT might get some pushback around here...
"Well, I don't know much about bands but I do know you can't make a living selling big trombones, no sir. Mandolin picks, perhaps..."
I would suggest consulting Stephen Gilchrist.
If you went down to a 1&1/8 or 1&3/16 nut, and replaced the fretboard with a radiused one, the net change in mass would be negligible (pluses from the board, and minuses from the neck). Keep in mind you'll likely need a new bridge with appropriate spacing if you go narrower.
Most Stradivarius violins had their shorter necks and fretboards completely replaced with longer ones as knowledge of acoustics and instrument design grew.
The instrument is worth more if playable and maintained. Frankly, a 1&1/4 nut is not comfortable for most people, unless you're Adam Steffey... 1&1/8 or 1&3/16 will also open up a larger player market for resale in future.
I don't think you'll diminish the value if the changes are done well and documented properly. The provenance matters a lot... which is why I'd have Stephen do the work, photograph it, and keep any original material that is not put back on the instrument.
But, don't listen to me... talk to the expert (SG).
Best of luck,
D
If you need this much validation to make a change, maybe you need a banjo to "adjust"!
Timothy F. Lewis
"If brains was lard, that boy couldn't grease a very big skillet" J.D. Clampett
BANJO!! Never, Timothy. Yikes...
BTW I did shoot off an email to Mr. Gilchrist asking his opinion regarding this issue, but not asking if he was available or willing to do the work should I decide to go that way. It seems the best option would be removing and replacing rather than reshaping.
I am really enjoying playing this wonderful sounding little beauty. I am adjusting a bit but the difference between 1-1/8 radius vrs. 1-1/4 flat with narrow frets is challenging if not daunting. The bright, responsive, vintage sound is rewarding, however.
Billy
billypackardmandolin.com
Billy Packard
Gilchrist A3, 1993
Weber Fern, 2007
Stiver Fern, 1990
Gibson 1923 A2
Gibson 1921 H1 Mandola
Numerous wonderful guitars
Mine is a snake head, but has that V shape as well. It is my preferred neck shape.
Many mandolinners, myself included, avoid thumb in the center of the back of the neck anyway, preferring to have it ride up on the up side of the neck. It works well for everything but classic barre chords. But, I don't do many barre chords actually.
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