Pinky Question from a Guitarist

[kidsguitar3]

So I've played the guitar for over 30 years and started playing mandolin about 2 yrs ago. After a year of struggling with the new tuning with melody and chords, I tuned it to the high 4 strings of the guitar, D, G, B and E. I did quite well with this tuning until the mandolin police showed up on my front porch and I was physically forced to change back to mandolin tuning. ( The police cam was pretty shaky!) actually, I'm also going to try and learn the fiddle, so I went along with them peacefully.

My question: I use my pinky regularly when playing the guitar ie, scales or melodies, but in most videos or instruction on mandolin, I don't see them using the pinky. ie, if I were in 2nd position on guitar I would use index finger for fret 2, middle for fret 3, ring finger fret 4 and pinky fret 5.

So If I were playing Twinkle Twinkle in key of G in 2nd postiton, I would play 4th string open X2, 3rd string open X2, 3-2 X2, 3-0. Then 4-5 X2(WITH PINKY), 4-4 X2 with ring, 4-2 index X 2 then 4-0. Would you the mandolin community encourage me to play in this way or to play 5th fret with ring finger, 4th fret with middle finger and 2nd fret with index?

Thank you in advance for your help. and advice

Jeff

[UsuallyPickin]

Standard mandolin fingerings are two frets per finger. Index finger frets one and two, middle finger frets three and four , ring finger frets five and six and pinkie picks up seven and eight if you have enormous hands....... definitely different than guitar. Fiddle fingering is like mandolin but tighter because of the shorter scale. R/

[MikeEdgerton]

Ted Eschliman has a book out on Four Finger Closed Position or FFcP. This page goes over some of the basics and has some downloads. Take a look at it. I played guitar for over 50 years and I still have trouble using my pinkie all the time but it should be used. This concept will get you using that fourth finger. If you want to know more the book you can read about it here.

As far as tunings go, at some point you're going to realize how much easier playing an instrument in fifths is than playing in fourths. Right now it's easier to play it like a guitar because you're familiar with it. Also, the mandolin and the violin do indeed have the same tuning but you don't ever want to hand me a violin. I have yet to get anything worthy out of one because everything that instrument has seems to be wrapped up in the hand you are holding the bow in. Welcome to the cafe.

[Mark Gunter]

Jeff, viewing the mandolin as definitely a different instrument than the guitar and picking up new technique specifically for mandolin will take you a long way toward becoming proficient on the instrument. I have 49 years or so on guitar, and have been practicing mandolin now for a year and a half. You should hold the mandolin much differently than a guitar; it's not just the size but the angle of the instrument may be quite a bit different, depending on how you hold a guitar. Your hand position (fingers) in the "home" position should be slanted much differently than for the guitar; also as mentioned, you should devote two frets per finger rather than one. I would recommend that you go to back to the dugout for a bit and study the basics for mandolin, it would be worth the investment of time and effort to try and correct any bad habits you may have picked up over the past two years. Pete Martin has some excellent, free, basic video lessons you should take time to consume, and there are others. I have links to some of the free basic lessons in this article, as well as a little advice for guitar players: http://www.markgunter.net/cool_stuff...olin-beginners

There are a whole lot of videos and lessons on mandolin to be seen, the pinkie is of great use to many, many mandolin players. I often use the pinkie at 6th fret in tunes where the ring finger is pretty busy on fifth fret, though this is not the norm for most players, and definitely use it for 7 & 8 unless the tune calls for a slide up.

This is a great community, and I think it won't take long before you find just how cool the mandolin is in its own right with its standard fifths tuning, unique sound and ease of play once you've got the basics in place.

Good luck on your journey, and welcome to the forum!

[Pete Martin]

Standard fingerings are for major scales (and any of the modes of the major scale):

Unless playing the open string, the next note in the scale gets the next available finger.

For example, the G major scale, 1st position.
G, fifth fret D string, ring finger
A, open A string
B, second fret A string, index finger
C, third fret A string, middle finger
D, fifth fret A string, ring finger
E, open E string
F#, second fret E string, index finger
G, third fret E string, middle finger.

G major scale third position:
G, fifth fret D string, index finger
A, seventh fret D string, middle finger
B, ninth fret D string, ring finger
C, tenth fret D string, pinkie
D, fifth fret A string, index finger
E, seventh fret A string, middle finger
F#, ninth fret A string, ring finger
G, tenth fret A string, pinkie

[dhbailey]

[snip]Fiddle fingering is like mandolin but tighter because of the shorter scale. R/

When I hold my mandolin up next to my fiddle (full size) the scale is the same length. When I play my fiddle and I play my mandolin the fingering is identical. Why do you say the fiddle has a shorter scale?

[Bertram Henze]

... definitely different than guitar.

Warning in advance, anticipating the usual guitar player's mistake here: The hand attitude typical for guitar-playing, fingers parallel with the frets, will present an obstacle to mandolin fingering because the fingers spread only so far. You'll have to turn your hand so the fingers are almost parallel with the fretboard to make those reaches. Watch violin players' hands, or watch this to get an idea.

[JSanta]

Warning in advance, anticipating the usual guitar player's mistake here: The hand attitude typical for guitar-playing, fingers parallel with the frets, will present an obstacle to mandolin fingering because the fingers spread only so far. You'll have to turn your hand so the fingers are almost parallel with the fretboard to make those reaches. Watch violin players' hands, or watch this to get an idea.

This was a big revelation to me. When I play the guitar, I am a thumb behind the neck person, but the mandolin is not a small guitar and requires it's own technique. Learning the correct fretting hand angle has made an enormous difference on playing some of the more complex pieces, especially the violin partita's from Bach. If I hadn't gotten the angle down, I'd still be working through the first few bars.

[Tobin]

When I hold my mandolin up next to my fiddle (full size) the scale is the same length. When I play my fiddle and I play my mandolin the fingering is identical. Why do you say the fiddle has a shorter scale?

Typical 4/4 violin scale length is about 13 inches. Typical modern mandolin scale length is almost 14 inches. I do notice the difference when switching between my mandolins and my fiddles. If I'm playing my mandolin and then go to fiddle, I'll tend to over-reach until I get used to the shorter scale again (it takes a few minutes). The shorter violin scale length works better for my smaller hands, though!

Of course, there are always some variations. Older bowlback mandolins may have shorter scale lengths. And you could actually set a violin to a longer scale length if you wanted, since it's not set in stone due to fret placement. But generally speaking, mandolin scale lengths are indeed longer than violins by about an inch.

[MikeEdgerton]

Warning in advance, anticipating the usual guitar player's mistake here: The hand attitude typical for guitar-playing, fingers parallel with the frets, will present an obstacle to mandolin fingering because the fingers spread only so far. You'll have to turn your hand so the fingers are almost parallel with the fretboard to make those reaches. Watch violin players' hands, or watch this to get an idea.

Yes and watch your callouses migrate from the fingertip to the "corner" of the fingertip.

[JeffD]

Guitar players come to mandolin with their experience and play with a guitarrish accent. Woodwinds come to mandolin with their experiences and play with a clarinetish accent. Even violin players in transition have their accent.

After a while you fall in love with this eight string wonder, and figure out how to play it all mandolinny.

[Bertram Henze]

guitarrish accent

that really nails it.

[kidsguitar3]

Wow! I'm blown away by all these great responses! I guess I've got my work cut out for me, but I'm willing to do it. Thank you all for your time and expertise!

Jeff

[Pete Martin]

When I hold my mandolin up next to my fiddle (full size) the scale is the same length. When I play my fiddle and I play my mandolin the fingering is identical. Why do you say the fiddle has a shorter scale?

Different violins have different scale lengths as well sometimes.

[John Dough]

I come from 40 years of guitar.
I just learned Pachelbel's Canon (may post a multitrack recording).
I ended up using 1 finger per fret, mostly, with lots of pinkie action, and switched to extended hand position for the g-string notes.
It's in D major, so if I was doing a major scale up from the D string, it felt funny to use my middle finger for both 3rd and 4th frets for those runs, instead of using middle finger for 3rd fret and ring finger for 4th fret.
I guess I have a heavy guitar accent.

[Tobin]

It's in D major, so if I was doing a major scale up from the D string, it felt funny to use my middle finger for both 3rd and 4th frets for those runs, instead of using middle finger for 3rd fret and ring finger for 4th fret.

When doing chromatic runs, it is acceptable to deviate from the normal finger rules. Mandolin/violin fingering is a guideline that works for probably 95% of melody work, but as with any guideline, is open for contextual changes when it doesn't fit.

[JeffD]

I ended up using 1 finger per fret, mostly, with lots of pinkie action, and switched to extended hand position for the g-string notes....
I guess I have a heavy guitar accent.

Yea I would say.

The thing is, the guitar and the mandolin are kind of optimized by design. The next string is a hand span up from the last. So on guitar with one fret per finger, you have used all four fingers and then go up to the next open string. It happens to be a fourth up.

The mandolin, same way. The frets are closer together, so two frets per finger, and four fingers up and you go up to the next open string. It happens to be a fifth up.

So it kind of makes sense from an ergonomic standpoint.

A better way to think about it though, I think is what Pete says:

Unless playing the open string, the next note in the scale gets the next available finger.

So with mandolin, as you go up one finger at a time you go up the regular scale. For the most part.

With guitar, as you go up one finger at a time you go up the chromatic scale .

I dunno, there are a million ways of describing it.

But, you have a definite advantage. If you were to play a mandola, or especially mandocello, (or tenor guitar or tenor banjo) your one finger per fret is the way to go (say many, but not all folks). I am having a lot of trouble adopting it on the bigger instruments, but I am getting there. In those cases it is kind of a mismatch between hand span and string interval.

I would sooner give up two frets per finger than give up strings tuned in fifths, because musically it just makes so much sense to me.

There is no easy path, until you have taken it, and then it seems like it was always the right path.

[ralph johansson]

Warning in advance, anticipating the usual guitar player's mistake here: The hand attitude typical for guitar-playing, fingers parallel with the frets, will present an obstacle to mandolin fingering because the fingers spread only so far. You'll have to turn your hand so the fingers are almost parallel with the fretboard to make those reaches. Watch violin players' hands, or watch this to get an idea.

I must confess that I've always approached left hand technique the same way on guitar (close to 60 years of playing) and mandolin (close to 50 years): the left hand is there to stop the strings, not to hold or support the instrument. I.e., i xsecure the instrument in place, using, strap, points, etc. and bring my left hand to the neck and start playing. The geometry of the instrument takes care of the rest.

E.g, except when using barre chords on the guitar my left thumb will land on the side of the neck, below the fretboard. On the mandolin, by contrast, the outer joint will show above the fretboard. And I say "land" because I've never forced my thumb anywhere. When barring, it will slide in under the neck, towards the middle. When going up the neck, it will trail behind. I'm aware of this as I have very little control over my left thumb: if I extend my left hand, palm up, my thumb will stand at a 45 degree angle to it, slightly bent. I cannot bend it backwards, or even straighten it.

This business with fingers parallell to frets or meeting the fretboard at an angle is just as automatic to me. On the guitar on is more concerned with reach across the wide fretboard, on the mandolin with reach along the fretboard.

[ralph johansson]

So I've played the guitar for over 30 years and started playing mandolin about 2 yrs ago. After a year of struggling with the new tuning with melody and chords, I tuned it to the high 4 strings of the guitar, D, G, B and E. I did quite well with this tuning until the mandolin police showed up on my front porch and I was physically forced to change back to mandolin tuning. ( The police cam was pretty shaky!) actually, I'm also going to try and learn the fiddle, so I went along with them peacefully.

My question: I use my pinky regularly when playing the guitar ie, scales or melodies, but in most videos or instruction on mandolin, I don't see them using the pinky. ie, if I were in 2nd position on guitar I would use index finger for fret 2, middle for fret 3, ring finger fret 4 and pinky fret 5.

So If I were playing Twinkle Twinkle in key of G in 2nd postiton, I would play 4th string open X2, 3rd string open X2, 3-2 X2, 3-0. Then 4-5 X2(WITH PINKY), 4-4 X2 with ring, 4-2 index X 2 then 4-0. Would you the mandolin community encourage me to play in this way or to play 5th fret with ring finger, 4th fret with middle finger and 2nd fret with index?

Thank you in advance for your help. and advice

Jeff

In the keys of G, C, D, and F, there are no scale notes on the 6th fret, except for the high Bb on the 1st string, in the key of F. So in those keys, and first position, you will hardly ever need the pinky. I bet the examples you've been watching were in those keys. However, for reasons of both left and right hand economy, on should get used to using the seventh fret instead of an open string in many situations. I never took a lesson, but when I started on the mandolin I was advised not to use open strings AT ALL, in the beginning. In time, of course, I took to using open strings whenever convenient (e.g., ass phrase turns) but I still avoid leaving a string on an open note.

[Mandoplumb]

I have never thought about which finger covers which fret. Like some one said about scales and for me playing in general the next note uses the first available finger. Forms and rules can get you started but there comes a time when you quit thinking rules and just play.