Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 45

Thread: Snakeheads?

  1. #1

    Default Snakeheads?

    My main mando is a Paris Swing with a small D hole [avatar]. I've not paid much attention to it beyond enjoying playing it, but have recently noticed some similarities between it and Gibson snakeheads prompting the question - what does everyone know about snakeheads? Looks like the 12th fret is at a different location than on F-style? Anything else? Let me know what you know!
    VerneAndru.com | oKee.ComX

    - ---==< V >==--- -

  2. #2
    formerly Philphool Phil Goodson's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Statesville, NC
    Posts
    3,256
    Phil

    “Sharps/Flats” “Accidentals”

  3. #3

    Default Re: Snakeheads?

    What would you like to know, Verne? I had a look at what Paris Swing mandolins are, and as far as I could tell, they all had snakehead pegheads--the style that narrows toward the top, which makes it harder yet to discern what you are asking. That's all that the term "snakehead" signifies, although they are more commonly found on A-style mandolins (whether oval-hole or f-hole equipped).

    I believe you're referring to the shorter neck traditionally found on older A-style, oval-hole mandos. Yup. The principle as I understand it is that instruments with f-holes have a stronger top and thus can support a longer neck, which was introduced with the original F-5.
    The presence or absence of a snakehead peghead doesnt figure into the neck length; it is a strong design tradition that F-5, and other F-body mandolins, have a paddle-style peghead. This seems odd to me, because the snakehead is considered a very desirable feature on A-body mandolins and increases the price substantially on vintage Gibsons, so I think its smart that it was incorporated into the Paris Swing design.
    Paris Swing seems to break all the rules; I would be interested to know how they hold up in the long run with that huge soundhole and the long neck (I can see in these pictures though that the neck is supported over the body by a rather large chunk of wood that you dont see on any other mando, so its clear that this innovative design did consider the practicalities.) Also how they sound! ??

    FWIW I have always figured that snakeheads are good because they provide better string separation between the nut and the tuners; it really can affect the sound when strings are jammed together in that area.

  4. #4
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    S.W. Wisconsin
    Posts
    7,507

    Default Re: Snakeheads?

    I had a couple years ago, the ones with ff holes stand up better than the large D hole. If I remember they had some structural problems so I would watch how heavy of gauge strings you use, on the D hole ones.
    THE WORLD IS A BETTER PLACE JUST FOR YOUR SMILE!

  5. #5

    Default Re: Snakeheads?

    Mine is the John Jorgenson version with the small D hole. I understand those grande bouche models have issues. I really liked the look of their large oval hole model, but this one found its way to me and I've no regrets.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Paris-Swing-with-Lace.jpg 
Views:	108 
Size:	269.7 KB 
ID:	152822

    http://www.mandolincafe.com/news/pub...ns_00415.shtml

    Reason I ask, and thanks for the great info ^^, is someone else talking about Gibson Snakeheads caused me to do a search which led to some curious discoveries.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	frontlarge.jpg 
Views:	154 
Size:	2.47 MB 
ID:	152823

    Aside from the obvious similarities in peghead design, the body style varies - F-style on the PS and A-style on SHs.

    What caught my eye was the placement of the 12th fret - the neck appears to meet the body at the 12th fret on both my PS and Gibson SHs.

    Yet on a Gibson F5 it looks like the neck joins at the 15th.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	73673_front.jpg 
Views:	241 
Size:	196.2 KB 
ID:	152824

    My PS is X-braced, unlike an f-style which usually has tone bars.

    So my Paris Swing seems an odd amalgam of two or three different mandolin builds and I was curious, from peeps who may know, what other things got mixed into the design.

    Mine is a fabulous sounding and playing instrument, so there was definitely method to the madness behind it.
    VerneAndru.com | oKee.ComX

    - ---==< V >==--- -

  6. #6
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Westchester, NY
    Posts
    30,753

    Default Re: Snakeheads?

    Snakehead tops are braced like most of the vintage oval hole Gibsons: with one main transverse brace between the soundhole and the bridge. And yes, that is the main difference between the vintage ovals and the F-5 — the point at which the neck joins which also re-positions where the bridge is located on the top. On the F-5 it is more centered on the top and on the ovals (F's or A's) positioned further back toward the tailpiece.
    Jim

    My Stream on Soundcloud
    Facebook
    19th Century Tunes
    Playing lately:
    1924 Gibson A4 - 2018 Campanella A-5 - 2007 Brentrup A4C - 1915 Frank Merwin Ashley violin - Huss & Dalton DS - 1923 Gibson A2 black snakehead - '83 Flatiron A5-2 - 1939 Gibson L-00 - 1936 Epiphone Deluxe - 1928 Gibson L-5 - ca. 1890s Fairbanks Senator Banjo - ca. 1923 Vega Style M tenor banjo - ca. 1920 Weymann Style 25 Mandolin-Banjo - National RM-1

  7. #7

    Default Re: Snakeheads?

    Jim, you made me look. It's really hard to see inside, but on closer inspection I was wrong, it is not X braced.

    When you say a transverse brace you're meaning this?

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	1920.A.mandolin.brace.jpg 
Views:	82 
Size:	95.7 KB 
ID:	152860

    The PS has 3 braces fanning from the sound hole to the back of the mandolin something like this [but only 3 - one running down the center and two running under each bridge foot, like tone bars, without any transverse or other braces.]

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	bracing.jpg 
Views:	63 
Size:	8.0 KB 
ID:	152849

    So it's sorta an A, but with quasi-tone-bars and F-style scrolls.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_0512.jpg 
Views:	73 
Size:	28.7 KB 
ID:	152856  
    VerneAndru.com | oKee.ComX

    - ---==< V >==--- -

  8. #8
    Registered User trevor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    brighton UK
    Posts
    1,800

    Default Re: Snakeheads?

    Here's some snakehead eye candy.

    Trevor
    Formerly of The Acoustic Music Co (TAMCO) Brighton England now retired.

  9. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to trevor For This Useful Post:


  10. #9
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Westchester, NY
    Posts
    30,753

    Default Re: Snakeheads?

    Quote Originally Posted by Verne Andru View Post
    Jim, you made me look. It's really hard to see inside, but on closer inspection I was wrong, it is not X braced.

    When you say a transverse brace you're meaning this?

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	1920.A.mandolin.brace.jpg 
Views:	82 
Size:	95.7 KB 
ID:	152860
    Yup! Here is Roger Siminoff's comparison and diagram:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	parts_compareF5.A5.F4.jpg 
Views:	106 
Size:	45.5 KB 
ID:	152861
    Jim

    My Stream on Soundcloud
    Facebook
    19th Century Tunes
    Playing lately:
    1924 Gibson A4 - 2018 Campanella A-5 - 2007 Brentrup A4C - 1915 Frank Merwin Ashley violin - Huss & Dalton DS - 1923 Gibson A2 black snakehead - '83 Flatiron A5-2 - 1939 Gibson L-00 - 1936 Epiphone Deluxe - 1928 Gibson L-5 - ca. 1890s Fairbanks Senator Banjo - ca. 1923 Vega Style M tenor banjo - ca. 1920 Weymann Style 25 Mandolin-Banjo - National RM-1

  11. #10

    Default Re: Snakeheads?

    Thanks Jim - informative link.

    So from what I gather, the snakeheads should produce a deeper, richer tone than an f-style whereas the f-style will have a more pronounced mid-range [bark] and hi end? Volume should be about the same?
    VerneAndru.com | oKee.ComX

    - ---==< V >==--- -

  12. #11
    Registered User Billy Packard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Grass Valley
    Posts
    885

    Default Re: Snakeheads?

    Sheeze Verne,

    It's not complicated...

    "Snakehead" is the shape of the peghead and has no effect whatsoever on the sound a mandolin makes!! NONE AT ALL!! A paddle-head, snake-head, F-style headstock--NONE OF THEM HAVE AN EFFECT ON THE WAY THE MANDOLIN SOUNDS.

    Starting with the individual maker, then the wood selection, body shape and depth, face and back-plate graduations, tone bars, aperture shape and size, finish, scale length, fret size, and at least a thousand other details will determine what a mandolin sounds like---
    not the frikken shape of the head-stock.

    Billy
    Billy Packard
    Gilchrist A3, 1993
    Stiver Fern, 1990
    Weber Fern, 2007
    Gibson F4 Hybrid #1, D. Harvey 2009
    Gibson 1923 A2
    Numerous wonderful guitars

  13. #12
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Vancouver, BC
    Posts
    471

    Default Re: Snakeheads?

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Packard View Post
    "Snakehead" is the shape of the peghead and has no effect whatsoever on the sound a mandolin makes!! NONE AT ALL!! A paddle-head, snake-head, F-style headstock--NONE OF THEM HAVE AN EFFECT ON THE WAY THE MANDOLIN SOUNDS.
    I dunno. Yes, the term refers directly to the shape of the head, because that's the most visible feature that distinguishes one set of mandolins from another. The folks who pay a 4-figure premium the buy a snakehead, however, do so because they're convinced that the head style signifies the presence of other less visible design features that give snakeheads a more pleasing sound. I haven't investigated, but it's a perennial debate.
    And now there was no doubt that the trees were really moving - moving in and out through one another as if in a complicated country dance. ('And I suppose,' thought Lucy, 'when trees dance, it must be a very, very country dance indeed.')

    C.S. Lewis

  14. #13
    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    13,103

    Default Re: Snakeheads?

    The argument in favor of snakeheads has never amounted to "the shape of the headstock influences the sound." To state that it does is to completely misunderstand why people like snakeheads.

    Of course Billy's argument contradicts itself. If "at least a thousand other details will determine what a mandolin sounds like," how can one be certain that the headstock shape isn't one of those thousand other details?
    Emando.com: More than you wanted to know about electric mandolins.

    Notorious: My Celtic CD--listen & buy!

    Lyon & Healy • Wood • Thormahlen • Andersen • Bacorn • Yanuziello • Fender • National • Gibson • Franke • Fuchs • Aceto • Three Hungry Pit Bulls

  15. #14

    Default Re: Snakeheads?

    Hey Billy - as others have said, I'm only using the reference to "snakehead" to try and suss out what went into the design of my mandolin.

    As discussed above, mine is a unique amalgam of different mandolin types but, from what I'm discovering, appears to be primarily a "snakehead" [and all the build features that implies] with some f-style scrolly-bits and a rather unique bracing approach [sorta f-style tone bars on an oval-hole design].

    I really appreciate all the input.
    VerneAndru.com | oKee.ComX

    - ---==< V >==--- -

  16. #15

    Default Re: Snakeheads?

    1. I'm getting the impression that there are different usages of the word "snakehead". Like Billy, I have always thought it was only a reference to the peghead shape, but I am getting the impression that it is also used, in the UK/Europe, to refer to an A-style or "teardrop" body shape. Understandable but confusing. Sorta like distinguishing between f-style as in body and f-as-in-f-holes.

    2. The shape of the peghead doesnt make a difference to sound, per se, as far as I know. But it affects the relative angle of installation of the tuners, which are almost always closer together at the top on a snakehead. On a straight paddle-head the tuners are usually angled away from each other towards the top, and on a fancy curved peghead they are generally parallel, as far as I can tell. Thus the snakehead pegheads have strings that stay well separated from each other between nut and tuning post, the parallel-installed tuners are slightly less separated but still separate, and on many, mostly older straight-sided paddle pegheads, the strings contact each other and sometimes even rub against other posts on their journey. I believe that that old-style spreading-tuner makes a difference to the sound because the length of the string between nut and saddle is not the only part of the string that affects the sound--having experienced buzzing etc caused by contact with the tailpiece, or by untrimmed string ends vibrating against each other on the peghead.
    I've never heard anyone else--and of course there are thousands more knowledgeable than I am on the subject of mandolin design factors-- state this theory, but I cant believe I'm the only one who ever thought of it. Mostly the snakeheads-are-better argument is just referred to as some mysterious belief that some mandolin cultists subscribe to because they heard it in a dream...or as s1mon says, that a snakehead signifies some other juju has been added to the instrument, but I like my theory better. Cheers.

  17. #16

    Default Re: Snakeheads?

    The mass of the peghead (including hardware) can affect the sustain. The shape has nothing to do with the sound. The Gibson snakeheads meet the body at the 12th fret, which puts the bridge in a different place on the body, which does affect the sound.

  18. #17
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Upstate New York
    Posts
    24,807
    Blog Entries
    56

    Default Re: Snakeheads?

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Packard View Post
    "Snakehead" is the shape of the peghead and has no effect whatsoever on the sound a mandolin makes!! NONE AT ALL!! A paddle-head, snake-head, F-style headstock--NONE OF THEM HAVE AN EFFECT ON THE WAY THE MANDOLIN SOUNDS.

    Starting with the individual maker, then the wood selection, body shape and depth, face and back-plate graduations, tone bars, aperture shape and size, finish, scale length, fret size, ...
    Billy that is what I have thought. Any difference in sound that really can be attributed to the shape of the peghead is likely smaller than the differences between any two mandolins.

    But there is this other meaning, where "snakehead" refers to a whole bunch of design innovations and build parameters that Gibson put into their snakeheads. And I don't know what they all are, or even if there are any that are unique to snakeheads, but they could be significant.

    I have a Gibson A2 snakehead 1923, and I have the Paris Swing John Jorgenson, the same model Verne has, and I can tell you they sound nothing like each other. Nothing. The Gibson has more in common with Gibson oval hole instruments, paddle head or scroll. The Paris Swing, the one I have anyway, has a kind of unique sound, similar enough to the other Paris Swing mandolins I have heard.

    So the peghead by itself, to my experience, imparts no significant characteristic difference, if any, and all the other normal things you would expect make a much larger difference.

    As an aside, that John Jorgenson has a real cool look. Very classy. Very Johnny Cash man in black type thing. Every time I take that one out, I feel a little thrill seeing it in my hands. I got it on ebay, and for a song, because it was a blem, which I cannot find where that is.
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

    The entire staff
    funny....

  19. #18
    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Rochester NY 14610
    Posts
    17,378

    Default Re: Snakeheads?

    "Snakehead" is really not just a reference to the headstock shape, when applied to Gibson A-model mandolins; it denotes a period in the early 1920's -- not identical to, but overlapping with, the so-called "Loar era" -- which is generally considered a "golden age" of Gibson mandolin production. Other innovations, such as the adjustable truss rod and height-adjustable bridge, were also introduced at this time.

    As a general rule, Gibson mandolins from the "snakehead" period are considered superior instruments, and command higher prices than earlier and later instruments of the same Gibson model. I, as a quasi-informed mandolin junkie, have a bit of skepticism, since my experience has been that the differences among individual mandolins are much more significant, than the general differences between different production eras.

    I think we should separate our discussion, from a consideration of headstock shape, to one of overall construction, selection of materials, factory quality standards -- and perhaps equally important, the fact that snakehead Gibsons are all almost a century old, and have been played (or, in some cases, stored) for decades on end. A new-ish Paris Swing and an 85-year-old A-Jr. have some characteristics in common -- they're both mandolins with "snakehead" headstocks, e.g. -- but their differences far exceed their similarities, IMHO.
    Allen Hopkins
    Gibsn: '54 F5 3pt F2 A-N Custm K1 m'cello
    Natl Triolian Dobro mando
    Victoria b-back Merrill alumnm b-back
    H-O mandolinetto
    Stradolin Vega banjolin
    Sobell'dola Washburn b-back'dola
    Eastmn: 615'dola 805 m'cello
    Flatiron 3K OM

  20. #19
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Upstate New York
    Posts
    24,807
    Blog Entries
    56

    Default Re: Snakeheads?

    Quote Originally Posted by allenhopkins View Post
    A new-ish Paris Swing and an 85-year-old A-Jr. have some characteristics in common -- they're both mandolins with "snakehead" headstocks, .
    Well there is that.
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

    The entire staff
    funny....

  21. The following members say thank you to JeffD for this post:


  22. #20

    Default Re: Snakeheads?

    AFAIK, peghead design has more to do with string-pull and tuning stability than tone. A snakehead design provides one of the straightest string pulls of any of the designs and should provide better tuning stability because there isn't a significant break-angle at the nut, which can cause problems.

    Jeff - thanks for chiming in about the sound differences between your Gibson snakehead and your JJ Paris Swing. Very interesting. Perhaps the bracing has something to do with that?

    I also got mine off ebay as a blem for not much coin. In my case the blem is some finish scuffing around the bridge feet - no big deal as it's not noticeable and something that happens to all mando's sooner or later from regular use.
    VerneAndru.com | oKee.ComX

    - ---==< V >==--- -

  23. #21
    Registered User trevor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    brighton UK
    Posts
    1,800

    Default Re: Snakeheads?

    "but I am getting the impression that it is also used, in the UK/Europe, to refer to an A-style or "teardrop" body shape. Understandable but confusing. Sorta like distinguishing between f-style as in body and f-as-in-f-holes."
    Not that I am aware of.

    Having had hundreds of vintage Gibsons and thousands of other mandolins over the last 15 years I can attest to the fact the Gibson snakeheads have a distinctive characteristic in their tone. The four different snakehead models I have at the moment, A, A1, A2z and A4 all sound different but have that definite snakehead vibe.
    Trevor
    Formerly of The Acoustic Music Co (TAMCO) Brighton England now retired.

  24. #22
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Upstate New York
    Posts
    24,807
    Blog Entries
    56

    Default Re: Snakeheads?

    Quote Originally Posted by Verne Andru View Post
    AFAI
    Jeff - thanks for chiming in about the sound differences between your Gibson snakehead and your JJ Paris Swing. Very interesting. Perhaps the bracing has something to do with that?
    .
    I am not sure how to attribute the differences. Bracing, type of woods, type of construction, and age and amount played.

    I think one big difference, if I am not mistaken the Paris Swings are pressed arches, not carved arches. Some were, maybe all of them, I am not sure. But that would account for a whole lot of difference.

    And as Allen says, 85 years of aging.
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

    The entire staff
    funny....

  25. The following members say thank you to JeffD for this post:


  26. #23
    Registered User T.D.Nydn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Upstate N.Y.
    Posts
    1,331

    Default Re: Snakeheads?

    The Gibson A5L's are actually snakeheads also...

  27. #24

    Default Re: Snakeheads?

    Quote Originally Posted by trevor View Post
    "but I am getting the impression that it is also used, in the UK/Europe, to refer to an A-style or "teardrop" body shape. Understandable but confusing. Sorta like distinguishing between f-style as in body and f-as-in-f-holes."
    Not that I am aware of.

    Having had hundreds of vintage Gibsons and thousands of other mandolins over the last 15 years I can attest to the fact the Gibson snakeheads have a distinctive characteristic in their tone. The four different snakehead models I have at the moment, A, A1, A2z and A4 all sound different but have that definite snakehead vibe.
    OK thanks Trevor-couldnt tell from your picture since it doesnt show the headstocks of the instruments (drool). So I am getting that, to define the vernacular, "snakehead" is a Gibson instrument from the early-mid-twenties or possibly an instrument built in close imitation of same, while a snakehead peghead is a common feature on many mandolins which would not themselves be briefly described as "a snakehead". Am I warm?

  28. #25
    Registered User trevor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    brighton UK
    Posts
    1,800

    Default Re: Snakeheads?

    I would take Gibson Snakehead to mean an A style mandolin with an oval soundhole from the Loar period. I don't know the exact dates or if they ran past Loar leaving, I am sure someone will enlighten us.

    I can't wait to get Walter Carter's new book. I am sure there will be plenty about snakeheads in there.

    Trevor
    Formerly of The Acoustic Music Co (TAMCO) Brighton England now retired.

  29. The following members say thank you to trevor for this post:


Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •