Newish to Mandolin, Teacher advice.

[Joysome]

Hello Mandolin Cafe,
I guess this will be my introduction post along with a question.
Background: (TLDR; I am not completely new to music but I am new to Mandolin. Just started lessons with a guitar teacher who dabbles in mandolin.)
I am so far a self taught beginner Mandolin player. When I first started playing about a year and a half ago, I bought a Rouge100 and picked up "The American Mandolin Method" by Brian Wicklund and Ben Winship along with the "Dummies Guide to Mandolin" by Don Julin. The first book was honestly my go to for learning, its just sheet music with blurbs. Though the dummies guide was an excellent in depth guide for most of my questions.
I have basically learned to play Melodies. Since I progressed with the instrument I thought it was time to buy a quality mandolin, so I bought a Kentucky 505 in the beginning of summer (I can play for hours on her.)
I can read music from playing Clarinet when I was younger but this is my first time with an Acoustic instrument. (Never touched guitar.) Currently I am working on my first chords and some strumming rhythms and not sure where to go with that.

Fast forward to a couple weeks ago, I went to my closest music store and signed up for Mandolin lessons. I feel like I'm in a rut and want to make sure the things I have learned are correct and to get more knowledge and confidence as a player. The teacher I have mainly teaches Guitar and has taught himself some Mandolin. The lessons are cheap (20$) and half hour long. A key thing to note is, there are no other mandolin teachers near me and I am not interested in doing online courses with a teacher (though I do look for music and information from other resources online. Shout out to Mandolessons and Mandolinsessions)

The lessons so far have been okay, and he is trying to teach me chords. My last lesson he asked me "If you have anything we would like to work on or any ideas, just let me know." which to me sounds like hes not sure what to do with me. I have already paid for a month(4 days) of lessons and am hellbent on continuing my lessons with him that I paid for and getting the most worth out of my money.

My question is: What are some exercises that I should go over with my teacher, how can I get the most of my time with him?

Thank you for reading, I am looking forward to your responses.

[9lbShellhamer]

I would strongly consider lessons online as an avenue as well. It's easy to find
great mandolin players compared to how hard it is to find a great teacher... The beauty of the internet is that we have the chance to take lessons from GREAT instructors now! I can't say enough good things about Matt Flinner, and I would strongly suggest looking into David Benedict too. There are many other great options too that I'm just not as familiar with.

The reason I like Matt Flinner's courses so much is that if you miss class you can watch it the next day. You can post videos online and get feedback. Class creates ACCOUNTABILITY if you need it, and you are forced to examine many different schools of thought and tunes you might not learn otherwise. His classes also meet Saturdays for practice, so it's truly the best bargain around. He provides a ton of PDF files each week and it's highly organized.

Good luck.

[Tobin]

I would seriously not recommend taking mandolin lessons from a guitar teacher who only dabbles in mandolin. He doesn't even fully understand the nuances of mandolin himself, and so the instruction he's giving you is likely going to be coming from a guitar-centric point of view. That can steer you in the wrong direction.

But - if you've already paid for a month of lessons, you might as well use them. If nothing else, use it as jam time with him on guitar and you on mandolin. Learning to improvise on the mandolin with a guitar player doing backup is very useful. Or, have him play a simple melody on his mandolin while you sound out the harmony on yours.

[Andy Hatfield]

Play songs with your teacher. You play the melody while he plays the chords, then he can play the melody while you play the chords.

Strumming makes no sense until there is a second person involved playing or singing.

Keep it simple. Learn the melody and chords to songs, and fancy up the songs if you want.

Andy

[Don Julin]

Hi Joysome, and welcome to the Cafe. You are at the right place if you want to join the world-wide mandolin community. You are exactly why many of us have learned how to teach over the internet. There may not be a qualified mandolin teacher located close to you. You have many great choices including live Skype lessons, group lessons via Go-to-meeting, and on-line membership sites with pre-recorded lessons. Any of these would be far better than learning mandolin from a guitar teacher. Two things to watch for to see if you are in good hands. 1. Does your current mandolin teacher insist on getting the pick direction of each note correct? Does your current mandolin teacher use their ring finger play the fifth fret when playing melodies or scales? (guitar players tend to use their fourth finger for the fifth fret as that would be a more common guitar approach) If you answered no to either of the above questions, you should look at some of your other options. IMHO the mandolin is the "prince" of all stringed instruments and is absolutely not a little guitar.

Try to find a teacher that encourages good left and right hand technique along with suggesting tunes that are standard in the mandolin world. Part of the reason for standard tunes is so that you can hear and see (youtube) others playing the same tune. You will see variations in melody which is all part of this world, but most of all you will be able to see the physical motion of the mandolin players hands. Watch the right hand of your favorite mandolin players. Better yet, study the right hand of your favorite mandolin players. Mandolin playing is about 80% right hand.

You mentioned that you are not sure where you headed with chords and strumming. Strumming chords will get you playing with other folks faster than anything I can think of. Coming from a woodwind background you may not have ever been part of the rhythm section, but I can tell you that once you start playing with other people, you will spend a majority of your time strumming chords. The mandolin is a great melody instrument but not while someone else is singing. Strumming is one area that your current guitar/mandolin teacher could be very useful as guitar players tend to be proficient at strumming.

Good luck and welcome to the wonderful world of mandolin.

Don Julin

[bigskygirl]

Welcome! Find yourself a good mando teacher who plays the mandolin as their primary instrument - the very best players give lessons in various formats now one of which is sure to meet your needs. Have fun.

[Joysome]

Thank you guys for posting your insight and your welcoming! I was honestly surprised to see replies so fast. It does mean a lot to me and I have taken it into consideration.

I found out my teacher wasn't particularly a mandolin teacher during my first lesson, but I figured he'd give me some information (music theory and learning to play with others) that I could learn from. You are right in how he doesn't know the nuances of mandolin. (He had admitted it.) After this month of lessons I am not going to continue learning from him.

I wasn't really sure how online classes work. The only examples I've seen are the live lessons, which might be hard for me to attend because of my work schedule. Though, I will look into the teachers that were suggested on here and see which one will fit me.

As for the meantime, I think the idea of learning to harmonize with his guitar and learning to play along with him is a great idea and initially was my biggest intention for wanting lessons.

Thank you again for your advice, I hope to post a video or two in the future with some quality mandolin playing.

[JeffD]

I can read music from playing Clarinet when I was younger but this is my first time with an Acoustic instrument. (Never touched guitar.) Currently I am working on my first chords and some strumming rhythms and not sure where to go with that.

That is exactly where I started. I even used my beginners clarinet book and a mandolin fingering chart to teach myself to read with the mandolin.

So I can relate a bit. I may presume a few things that may not apply, I realize.

The biggest prejudice I had to let go of came from my woodwind days - that of the single note melody. Looking back I kind of thought of music as melody and backup, and melody was my responsibility and everything else was someone else's job. It took a while to really get the idea that I could do the whole thing, that for the first time I could do more than one note at a time. I was the whole orchestra.

So chords were difficult for me and even now they are not my strong suit. So I would say listen a whole lot and identify out loud the chords. Not the chord name per se, but its position in the scale. I still find that a real useful exercise, and I don't even need the mandolin with me. Anytime there is music is an opportunity to try and figure out the chords.

Second biggest prejudice I came away from woodwinds with is the idea that there is a single correct fingering for every note, with perhaps some alternate fingerings for special circumstances. On the mandolin there are not a lot of notes that can only be played in one place, and more than a few with three correct locations. So to combat this I deliberately explore and seek out all the symmetries on the instrument. I try like a D scale and find how many perfectly legit ways I can find to play that same D scale.

The third biggest woodwind prejudice I had was thinking there was something special about the C scale, and that sharps and flats were really departures from "home". True on woodwinds, and piano, but on strings no key is sacred. There are so many symmetries on the mandolin that one can play a tune in several keys using the same or similar enough patterns and be pretty oblivious as to the "departures". All keys (ok, most) are home. The wonder of moveable patterns.

So these are just some things to work on with your teacher, or by yourself. Two great sources of exercises, that had they existed way back when I would be much further along:

FFcP as developed by Ted Eschliman

And two books by Todd Collins, Fretboard Studies and Modes for Mandolin


Good luck. You are in for a metric ton of fun.

[Randi Gormley]

You haven't specified what genre of music attracts you -- that's another consideration in working with a teacher. Strumming and chords are all well and good if that's the kind of music you are concentrating on. You'll find that you don't need either if you play strictly classical or ITM. You can actually play to your strengths if single-line melody is a strength and you're only drifting into chords and strumming as some sort of "I guess I have to do it because that's the rule" kind of mindset. Strumming and chords are part of the larger mandolin (and music) experience but you do have the option of going in another direction.

My mandolin teacher (we meet once a month) and I mostly just play baroque duets together, which is single-line melody; or he'll grab his guitar and play chords or backup if we're wandering into choro (I'm a single-line-melody kind of girl). same with playing with my-husband-the-guitar-player -- I play single line melody on ITM tunes and he plays chords and backup. So there's that -- you get to work on reading/learning fiddle tunes and your teacher provides the backup. It's music as opposed to, say, technique.

For technique, I'll add a nod to what the others are saying. it's best to learn how to play the mandolin from someone who has mandolin as a primary instrument. That way you don't end up changing something right (for mandolin) to learn the technique for, say, guitar or banjo -- and that includes the angle of the fretting hand and placement of your picking hand and whether to rest your little finger on the instrument or not.

[Joysome]

@JeffD, thank you, I feel I am definitely having a similar experience.

I kind of thought of music as melody and backup, and melody was my responsibility and everything else was someone else's job

This is exactly the thing that I am struggling with , which is why I learned on practicing melody. I thought, "how did I start when I played clarinet in school?"
When I first started playing, I asked a guitar friend what I should focus on first and he chuckled and said "learn chords, everyday, don't stop practicing them and learn as many of them as possible" I couldn't believe how important chords were.

I came away from woodwinds with is the idea that there is a single correct fingering for every note

When I learned the 7th fret is the same note as the next open string, I was very surprised!

[Joysome]

@ Randi Gormley
Honestly, I am open to all types of music. I am not really hard-set on a certain style yet. I was starting to explore some music through Mandolinsessions (before they shut down.) I love Classical (tremolo is so beautiful) and I love the energy from the other genres. Though Melody is awesome and super fun to pick, chords to me are amazing and such a beautiful thing that you can build so much onto a song and play by yourself. Something I always admired from other instruments when I played Clarinet.

In the end I really would love to play along with another person or a group of people. I figured Chords would be a good way to get to know the fretboard pretty well and learn to stretch the fingers for easier playing.

Boroque sounds interesting, I think I'll look up a couple tabs later on.

[Fred Keller]

Skype lessons can be wonderful, too. I teach (skype and in-person here in MN) so I do have a financial interest. I have had a number of adult learners who come to me after the "guitar teacher who knows a little mandolin." I even have a former wind player LOL. It's preferable to work with someone whose first instrument is mandolin. That person will be able to help you really understand the instrument and not just stay one page ahead of you in the lesson book.

[JeffD]

When I learned the 7th fret is the same note as the next open string, I was very surprised!

FFcP will blow your mind. Really. It will.

[Woodrow Wilson]

The best guitar teacher that I ever had taught me how to listen to music and figure out how to play the parts without looking at music or tabs... perhaps he could take that sort of approach with you, teaching you something productive that isn't really restricted to a single instrument. You could also work on things like picking approaches and strumming techniques, left hand techniques, playing in various keys and circle of fifths type stuff.

I wouldn't dump him because he isn't an experienced mandolinist, there are still things you could possibly learn from him. I would, however, move on if he isn't creative enough to find ways to benefit you as an overall musician. You shouldn't have to ask us to help guide your lessons, that needs to be on him, in my opinion. I would also move on if you are already on top of the sorts of things I just mentioned and don't need any help with such techniques and/or theory.

Can he read violin/mandolin music and play? No reason he couldn't work through books with you. I don't know, a local violin teacher may be a better approach to learning to read music though. Meet as many instructors of various instruments that you can... you never know whom you might find through the network. I grew up in the boonies and only eventually found a violin teacher while sitting at a table drinking coffee and making conversation as she was semi-retired and didn't advertise. I doubt that I could have found a mandolin teacher without driving at least an hour, but who knows who may live just down the street that you never met.

[dwc]

I would not be quite so quick to dump your in person instructor. I have tried to learn for both Artist Works and Peghead Nation. I am sure these sort of sites work for some people, but not me.

The best advice I ever got was at a jam. I asked a guy how he got so good, and he said, "Tunes man, tunes. You ever met a guy who knows a hundred tunes and can't play?" There is a lot of folksy wisdom in that. I would get a book of tabbed fiddle tunes (or if you can read standard notation, even better) and learn a tune a week, a month, whatever pace you are on. Learn the melody, then learn the chords. Most fiddle tunes are in just a couple of keys (D and A being common) with just a few chords. You and your instructor can go back and forth with each playing the lead and each offering accompaniment. Playing actual music with another person will make a world of difference in your playing.

I tend to think people concentrate too much on exercises and etudes. If you learn an exercise, then you have learned an exercise, but if you learn a tune, then you actually have a piece of music you can play.

[JeffD]

I tend to think people concentrate too much on exercises and etudes. If you learn an exercise, then you have learned an exercise, but if you learn a tune, then you actually have a piece of music you can play.

Play exercises, learn tunes. the tunes give you something to play. The exercises give you a work out on specific finger gymnastics you will need over and over again, and accelerates specific finger sound mind connections. Plus it makes you aware of possibilities never thought of.

But no reason to learn exercises, just play them and work on them.

Tunes, yea. Learn tunes. They are fun. They provide you with actual music. Stuff you can demonstrably play on your mandolin. And they can often be generalized so that other tunes in the genre become easier and more intuitive.

And because, there are a lot of tunes out there, and they are not learning themselves.

[Joysome]

@Woodrow Wilson
He did start talking to me about the circle of fifths because I asked him to teach me chords during my first lesson. I have had at least 4 other lessons previously with him. I was hoping by at least the third lesson he would start having an idea of what type of student I am and what we should work on together.
In the end, he isn't sure what he should go over with me (which in a way he has admitted to me). The lessons I signed up with gave me a free lesson book "Mandolin Method" By Hal Leonard, which he said he uses for his classes. We haven't touched it or looked through it together though. I have checked it out and played a little through it at home, but I'm guessing he isn't too familiar with it (at least with Mandolin).

The lessons themselves do not seem to have enough substance for me to continue with him. He's a wonderful person and plays great and I really like him, but most of the lessons themselves consist of him mostly playing and me asking questions. You can tell he wants to help, because he tries to think of stuff during the lesson but I don't walk away with much to think about.

During my next couple lessons I will pick his brain on some questions about left/right hand techniques and strumming!

[Joysome]

@dwc

You and your instructor can go back and forth with each playing the lead and each offering accompaniment. Playing actual music with another person will make a world of difference in your playing.

This is something I would love to learn to do and part of the big reason I wanted an instructor!
I'm the type of person that likes a lot of structure, so exercises are great for me but I can see how they may not work for other players. Are there any particular fiddle books you would recommend?