Pre-Loar vs Loar era A style

[gmpalmer]

Howdy!

I am in the market for a "budget" vintage A-style, oval-hole Gibson.

I have a mid-90s f-style Docy that is punchy, loud, and aggressive--but I almost never need it.

The mellow tones of an old Gibson are generally what I am looking for.

I plan to spend about $1000 and I've found a few (9 total) instruments that fit the mold, from 1916-1922.

While I know I love the sound of these instruments, I know there are a lot of particulars, so I'd love some advice. I read some of the threads on the forum and know that the difference in neck size and lack or presence of the truss rod are points of contention.

What I'm really looking for is preferences and anecdotes. And if you could pick one or the other, what would you pick?

Thanks!
Michael

[JeffD]

I think that mandolins from that time can be excellent. The sound and playability that you get will depend a whole lot on how they have weathered the intervening decades. I would really try to play before pay - or at least look for an exit strategy, a trial period and return policy.

[Jeff Mando]

Sounds like you've done your research and know the features. The problem would be getting your hands on all 9 at once to compare the sound and playability of one over another. In that situation, the choice would be more clear. But, in general, people like these and feel they are a good value. Probably hard to go wrong.

[gmpalmer]

I haven't gotten to listen to the specific teens mandolins but the two 1922s and two 1920s I heard were (not surprisingly) gorgeous.
There's a white 1920 A3 that needs about $400 worth of work but would cost about what the rest would.

Any strong feelings?

Thanks again for the advice--I love this place and I'm glad to have finally joined.

[allenhopkins]

There's so much variation among individual instruments, that generalizing over pre-and-post-1920 Gibson A's may not be too useful. You're already aware about the more "clubby" necks on pre-truss-rod instruments, and certainly knowledgeable about the premium prices generally commanded by snakehead instruments.

I'm a "Loar era" skeptic, since I haven't seen evidence that the magical Lloyd Loar aura wafted through the Kalamazoo factory, enhancing the sound of every mandolin Gibson built while LL was on site -- including A-models he never saw or touched. That said, Gibson was making some really nice mandolins at that time, so a late-'teens or early-twenties Gibson is likely to be quite satisfactory.

I have also a weakness for buying higher-end models in "well played" condition, instead of lesser models closer to "mint." So I'd be attracted to the white-face A-3. Cafe posters have stated that these mandolins seem to be quite uniformly good.

[Jim Garber]

I am in the market for a "budget" vintage A-style, oval-hole Gibson.
<snip>
I plan to spend about $1000 and I've found a few (9 total) instruments that fit the mold, from 1916-1922.

I do like Loar era mandolins. They are different. I would say you can find a nice Loar era A-Jr snakehead in your price range. The main difference is that the necks are a bit less chunky and the higher ones (not the A-Jr.) have truss-rods and have adjustable bridges. Otherwise, I would go for late teens or ideally 1920-21. I have yet to find a 21 Gibson that was not a nice mandolin.

[j. condino]

+1 on the Loar era Ajr snakeheads....

Like most things around here, a bunch of half deaf old geezers arguing about tone won't get you much usable information. My notes and blueprints consistantly show about a 20% difference in plate thickness and even more on the ribs with the thicker versions being around 1915 and the thinnest in the Loar period, with a corresponding difference in voice. The Loars are lighter and bit warmer with smaller necks. The 1914-1915 A models have consistently been some of my favorites with the thicker measurements and they tend to have a bit more punch and cut ( for an A style) and I rarely see one of those 100 year old instruments with cracked tops. They also tend to be at the lower end of the spectrum price wise.

The Griffith Loar A5 is a whole different conversation and my all time favorite mandolin that I have played.

For me the period correct original case is a must and the price should reflect that. They made enough of those old A mandolins that you should hold out and find a great one that meets your tonal needs and is in clean condition; the day after you purchase a compromise instrument, a mint one will show up for 1/2 the price. Remember that in a week you enter the best time of the year to buy a mandolin and April 1st to July 15 are probably the worst times of the year. Good luck with the search and post a few photos when you find the one.

j.
www.condino.com
soon to be half deaf old geezer...

[mtucker]

+1 on the Loar era Ajr snakeheads....

My notes and blueprints consistantly show about a 20% difference in plate thickness and even more on the ribs with the thicker versions being around 1915 and the thinnest in the Loar period, with a corresponding difference in voice. The Loars are lighter and bit warmer with smaller necks.


j.
www.condino.com
soon to be half deaf old geezer...

Agree. There are noticeable differences in weight and tone. The tops on the Loar-era A's seem more lively.

[fatt-dad]

very happy with my 1920 A3 (white), which I've owned for over 30 years. I've also owned and released an A2Z and a black-faced, snakehead A.

Random photos of my oval hole Gibson's. Again, the only one that remains is white.











f-d

[WW52]

The A style Gibsons from the teens I've owned were nice instruments with sweet, somewhat delicate tones and moderate volume. My 1922 A2 is a different story --it's powerful, happy being driven easy or hard and can sound sweet, smooth, hard driving and loud. I've owned it about 23 years and am very fond of it.

[Jeff Mando]

Very nice, fatt-dad! Am I seeing a compensated nut on your A3?

[fatt-dad]

Very nice, fatt-dad! Am I seeing a compensated nut on your A3?

yes, that nut is compensated. I know a dude that will do such things. . .

f-d

[acousticphd]

The thing is, I don't see you finding any snakehead models (early-mid 20s), even an A Jr snakehead, for $1000, unless you have a family connection or make some other lucky attic find.

The category you'd most likely be looking at would be teens A, A-1, or A Jr paddleheads (without a truss rod). This in fact would be my preference and recommendation (OR a late-20s paddlehead with a truss rod, but these again will almost certainly exceed $1K). Although the snakeheads have a lot of cache and desirability, they also have narrow fingerboards and shallower neck profiles. Personally, I find them harder to play, while the paddleheads are the opposite - wide comfortable fingerboard, deep V-profile neck.

My main mandolin is a battered, repaired & refinished 1915 A-style, which I love. If you like a nice pronounced V-shaped neck, you will love a Gibson paddlehead. My advice would be to pay closest attention to the neck, and above all the fingerboard plane/relief. That is the feature that you literally feel and play, with the left hand anyway. Pay attention to this, because most 100 yr old mandolins have too much relief, and could well need fret and fingerboard work to really be enjoyable to play, so budget on this. I have had the FB of mine replaned and refretted twice because the neck does not seem to want to stay straight, even 100 yrs on. I would not be too worried about cracks or other simple issues that have been well-repaired. You can actually find the best deals on something with some previous repairs, or that has been refinished.

[fatt-dad]

yes, my paddle head needed the fretboard straightened. It spent too many years in the original owner's attic. It's been stable since that repair though, c. 1986?

My A2Z sold at about $5K, my '25 blacktop A sold closer to $2K with non-original case. My white-face would likely price out at $1.5 or just north, but I'd keep it even at $5K. Too many stories.

f-d

[Capt. E]

My main mandolin is a 1919 A2 (sold Jan 1920) and I will never sell it. It is in beautiful original condition with original case (see below the link to my albums here on the Cafe) It cost me $1200 (a really nice price). There seems to be something special about model A2 's built 1919-1921. Perhaps the wood used...hard to say, but most owners will agree. The late teens A-2 is one of the good bargains in my opinion. I did replace the bridge with a Cumberland Acoustics adjustable one and added a McClung armrest, but other than a good set-up, that is all I have done. If you can find one under $1400, you have done well.

[fatt-dad]

Many do replace the bridge. I went too and fro, back to one piece.

f-d

p.s., I use TI Starks.

[Timbofood]

I agree with Allen, the "marketing ploy" of using the Loar era term is irritating, just because he may or may not have been in the building and walked past the bench where something was in it's infancy is ridiculous. It was first and foremost a factory with production schedules to meet so, they built instruments with or without Mr. Loar.
All that said, fat-dad, I love those "refrigerator" A-3s, I missed my chance at one years ago and have been mad at myself since.
To the OP, if you have nine in the running, you are a lucky guy. Just pick the one which speaks to YOU and let everyone else simply be envious!
I wish you the best of luck!

[fatt-dad]

One additional item of note: Three piece top!

f-d

[Matt Bowe]

A2z wins. : )

[BradKlein]

I'll add a couple of thoughts. Vintage Gibson A models vary quite a bit from instrument to instrument in tone and feel and intonation, and it's hard to generalize -- although I think the Loar era instruments do have significant changes from the earlier A models. So you can divide the market into snakehead and paddle head instruments based on your preferences.

But my real suggestion is that if you have enough savings to, at least temporarily, own TWO instruments, here's a plan. You start with what you think you'll like best. When you find something you think you'll like better, you buy that, and sell whichever of the two you are willing to part with. Repeat as long as the search holds your interest.

Gibson oval hole mandolins, A and F are kind of a commodity. They made SOOooo many of them during the boom years - almost 100,000. They are fairly easy to buy and sell.

My first (30+ years ago) was an H-2 that belonged to my girlfriend's grandmother - returned that and bought a Sheraton teens A - sold that and bought a Snakehead A-jr - that was replaced by an F model - and so it goes...

[pheffernan]

But my real suggestion is that if you have enough savings to, at least temporarily, own TWO instruments, here's a plan. You start with what you think you'll like best. When you find something you think you'll like better, you buy that, and sell whichever of the two you are willing to part with. Repeat as long as the search holds your interest.

I think that this advice is great, particularly for individuals forced to purchase from a distance. The danger, of course, is collection creep, where you like the new mandolin that you just acquired but don't want to part with the one you already had. My original Mid-Missouri quickly became four flattops before being winnowed down to one Poe Scout. I think I had six A5's at one point although I have reduced that figure to two. It's always easier to catch than release.

[pops1]

I would put the sound of my '22 A2 Paddle head up against an A2z any day. Except for the wider nut, which I wanted at the time, it has all the other Loar era improvements. It is a wonderful sounding example of a Gibson oval. I have yet to hear one that sounds better.