Results of lower action

[GTison]

The action seems a tad high on my 02 Fern. Seems like I raised it up to get rid of some buzz caused by my saddle. But I've wondered IF any one EVER GETS MORE VOLUME or TONE from LOWER ACTION.

[evanreilly]

Try it.... easy to do. May make it easier to play, which will translate.
The action on my '02 Fern is (top of fret to underside of string) is 5/64ths on the bass side and 3/64ths on the treble at the 12th fret.

[John Flynn]

The common wisdom is that a higher action results in more volume and tone. A lower action is for better playability. However, I read where Jethro Burns said once that he never agreed with that idea. He pointed out that he liked a low action, but he could match any "high-action" player for volume and tone anytime. He said he was glad to see a trend of players getting thier actions lower.

[bjc]

I like my action as low as possible and I have never had a volumn problem...some folks dig in REAL hard and may be louder no matter what the action, but in the end if you're playing well, that's what is important...just my 2 cents...no where's my change?

[Nick Triesch]

My guitars were so bad when I was a kid that I must now have low action. You could shoot arrows off my guitars when I was a kid. I've learned over the years to deal with a little buzz. I just know how to control it. Nick

[glauber]

The common wisdom is that a higher action results in more volume and tone. A lower action is for better playability. However, I read where Jethro Burns said once that he never agreed with that idea. He pointed out that he liked a low action, but he could match any "high-action" player for volume and tone anytime.

Maybe because he played electric?

[GTison]

Yeah, I've never heard anyone with extreemly low action play loud. Doesn't mean it can't be done with the right mandolin though. I'm not really talking about really taking it down to the fretboard though. I don't think I can stand that. I think my action is more like 7 or 8/64ths on the bass side. I have picked it up and it be about a half a pitch low , and I thought the mandolin had nicer tone. I've wondered if it was the slight difference in string tension. Lowering the action would lower the tension too. just thinking.

[Peter Hackman]

The common wisdom is that a higher action results in more volume and tone. A lower action is for better playability. However, I read where Jethro Burns said once that he never agreed with that idea. He pointed out that he liked a low action, but he could match any "high-action" player for volume and tone anytime.

Maybe because he played electric?

Well, either you dig Jethro's tone
(and his dotted type of swing) or you don't.
Very low action tends to produce a pinched and/or
shallow sound.

My Collings was set up by Elderly I;
I found it a bit low and raised it slightly. I may have
lost some speed, but I do believe I get a more
expressive sound. I like to play hard.

[Ted Eschliman]

Because a lower action allows my left hand fingers more immediate access to that magic "sweet spot" between the fret, and allows me to hold that tone longer, avoiding fatigue, I'd have to say low action lends anything but a "pinched" sound.
Completely contrary, if I'm handed an instrument with higher action, I'm not going to be able to control it was well, eventually cutting off my notes more. To my ears, that would be a "pinched" sound.
I'll grant this, though. I think a low action makes it harder to "spank" the instrument with the right hand, reducing dynamic variety in chord comping.
For full, linear, sustained tone, I'll happily take that trade.

[Zed]

Somewhere along the way i learned that raising the bridge increases the string tension and therefore pressure on the top, which in most acoustic instruments will cause an increase in volume (results of tone may vary). I've asked around, however, and so far no one has been able to either verify or disprove this scientifically.

My Rigel gets louder and woodier by raising the bridge. It's a very marked and noticable change, no doubt about it. Any acoustic instrument i've ever owned has gotten louder by raising the bridge.

Either way, the fact remains that you can play harder (and therefore louder) with higher action. Playing hard on a low action instrument will result in fret buzz at some point. This will be even more true if it has light guage strings. Hitting the strings harder causes them to physically move in a wider arc and that will cause them to hit the frets sooner the lower the action.

[John Flynn]

FWIW, I have read that two other players who like very low actions are Chris Thile and Norman Blake. Blake described the action he likes as "dangerously low."

[Steven Stone]

On every mandolin I've owned or set up for others I've found a certain critical height, below which the sound gets noticeably worse.

This crossover point isn't a subtle change, but like falling off a cliff. I've found that every mandolin needs a particular amount of top tension or downward force at the bridge to drive the top. If the action is too low the top just doesn't resonate to its full potential.

And while there is a point where the action is so high the mando will not intonate properly as you go up the neck, if it is too low, I find the action actually slows me down because my fingers don't get any bounce off the stings.

Finally I need the action high enough so the mando doesn't buzz out when I play a four finger bluegrass chop in B.

I've played Thile's and Blakes mandos and for most people, their action is too low. There's a reason that most of Norman's instruments require "field repairs" consisting of bits of paper under the strings at the nut whenever he spends too much time in dry parts of the country (like Colorado) for more than a handful of days.

[Nick Triesch]

I was told by Mike Marhall at a workshop that all the greats play super fast tunes by playing very , very quite. He said that they make great use of the mic. He told us that you cannot pound the mandolin and fly with speed. He told us thats how Chris Thile plays also. Mike also said they get some of their sound from the studio also. So in other words.......it's all bull about low and high action. Just have a good low action. If you play on stage it just does not matter. I have a friend that has a 70's Gibson that just is not very loud but he says it does not matter because on stage with a mic it sounds great. Nick

[arbarnhart]

I think Bill Monroe describe his action as "manly".

I have been playing with mine and do find there is a happy medium. I play a lot of rhythm but I am trying to learn more lead, so I keep wanting it both ways. I an vouch for the volume; it is absolutely louder when high.

[Dave Cohen]

I have seen (figurately speaking) zillions of claims by now of various modifications making mandolins, guitars, etc., etc.,... 'definitely louder". Problem is, none of those claims are either verifiable or falsifiable. I suggest that people buy a sound level meter such as available from Radio Shack, or etc.,. Set your mandolin, or whatever instrument, a set distance from the meter. The variation of plucking force must also be dealt with. Luthier Alan Carruth suggests using fine coil winding wire for that. You take a standard length of the wire, thread it behind the string, pull on both ends of the wire to displace the string until the wire breaks. The wire has a pretty consistent breaking strength, & so will break at about the same amount of string displacement every time, which means you will in essence be "plucking" the string with about the same force every time. Record the loudness sans mods, then again with your mods. You will then have a data point which can be indepently verified and/or falsified by anyone willing to do the same thing as you did.

My opinion, worth about as much as anyone else's opinion, is that a higher action allows the player to dig deeper or strum harder without causing the strings to rattle against each other or against the frets. That, and not a difference in radiated sound from the instrument, is what gives the player the perception of more loudness. At some point in a player's development, (s)he reaches a point at which (s)he wants consistency and control, and hence makes a conscious decision to not dig so deep, and to use a lower action. what players at that level seem to want in an instrument is one that produces good acoustic volume without excessive effort, rather than one that will produce more volume, but only at the cost of enough effort to decrease the consistency of one's playing.

http://www.erols.com/judcohen

[SternART]

I know a number of pro pickers who play with low action & are LOUD. They just know touch & how to get tone out of their instrument. But I agree with Steve Stone on this, every mandolin has a point where it just seems right, lower action, beyond a certain point, results in a drastic drop off in tone. But too high action has its downside in tone too. I see set up as a really important part of mandolins. I had a pro player vist me recently & say my instrument would be easier to play if I lowered the action a bit, he even did it for me & set the intonation better than I had it in the process. And it was plenty loud in his hands after the set up. There is a macho mentality about string height & tone, and it comes from jammin' with those hired gun kinda pickers, who don't back off to hear a quieter player. Too much competition trying to be heard over dreaded loud ban#$% etc. I think some players need to overcompensate, they just have an instrument that isn't loud, and are trying to make it a "hoss" or canon" or "peel bark" Well just like too low action, beyond a certain point is detrimental, too high action can make the sound more brittle, or cutting, but sacrifices in woodiness & tone. Set up is important. But pickin with folks that listen & try to hear other the other voices is important too.

[acousticphd]

Blake described the action he likes as "dangerously low."

That's a good enough endorsement for me!

I also like - (rather, would like) - my playing action low, for the reasons Ted mentions. In reality, the action you can achieve on a given instrument is often a compromise, especially on older intruments unless they have had neck work or at least fingerboard leveling. If the mando has a good neck angle, you can have bridge height even with really low action. My favorite mando lately is a ~1916 Gibson A that had a fingerboard replacement ~20 yrs ago, and is about as flat and even as you could ask for. Dangerously low describes the action on that one; the bridge is still ~7/8" high and it sounds very good.

[GBG]

I played around on a mandolin that had a very low action. It was easy to note, but I could not get a chop out of it for anything. When you hit the strings with your right hand you had to have perfect coordination on the release of your left hand to get anything close to a chop sound.

It is a trade off on playability and sound, but don't get locked into the extreme mentality for either high or low action. Every mandolin is different, every player is different.

[GTison]

I do like to pick with players who listen to the other play. BUT the other night I jammed at a local fest. with some folks who didn't have very good timing. No banjo that I remember but a electric bass and a Martin that liked to speed things up a good bit, and about 3to 5 other instruments of varying experience and proficiency levels. I was glad to have some volume to keep things in the ball park speed wise. ( This is not THE most loud mando you ever heard) I guess the point of all that is: If you have a mic to stick a mando in you can sacrifice all the volume for tone no matter what the action. AND that if you jam you're gonna need at least some volume or be frustrated by those inexperienced or unconcerned with anything else but volume.

I think I read where Compton had his action 7/64s at the 12th fret. If you play kinda hard or with alot of down strokes I would think you would need some good clearance to keep from buzzing the fretboard. I'm not sure about the one mic system what kind of volume I would need to put out for that but from recordings I seem to be Plenty (too) Loud.
-Does Norman Blake play out anywhere anymore?

[Lee]

A couple people mentioned that raising the bridge increases string tension. This is not so.
Raising the bridge makes the strings bend over the bridge at a sharper angle. This increases the down-bearing of the bridge against the mandolin top, which increases volume. But as long as the scale length remains the same the strings will be at pitch at the the same tension whether the bridge is low or high.

[Michael H Geimer]

I took the action up on my Bitterroot and got a significant change in tone for the better. Fuller, louder with more balance between the upper and lower courses.

Harder to play? Sure, but it sounds great so I deal with it.

[stevem]

A definitive study answered this question on the guitar in the 60's. It was done by the Zen ethno-musicologist, Ulrich Von Ubermanly, seen below. #Unfortunately he's German, so I didn't understand a word of the report.

[arbarnhart]

I have seen (figurately speaking) zillions of claims by now of various modifications making mandolins, guitars, etc., etc.,... 'definitely louder". #Problem is, none of those claims are either verifiable or falsifiable.

I based my comments on a couple of personal anecdotes. First, the "drown out" factor, meaning that I was drowned out by another instrument no matter how hard I played when I had the action low but could be heard when I went higher. But there is another interesting facet to the story. That "other instrument" is my Takamine dreadnaught guitar ('77 "lawsuit series") that I often loan to a friend to play so he can drop by without going home for his guitar. The Takamine has really low action. It has a pin style bridge so I don't think downward pressure would increase much if I raised it. It is a *very* loud guitar.

The second anecdote is building a tenor guitar (or whatever the 4 stringed creation should be called) for my daughter. It's shaped like a butterfly and largely ornamental, but it's quite playable. When I did my first test, I was very encouraged by the sound. But when I fitted a bridge for good action, it got substantially quieter. I don't mean a tiny bit; I mean like a hollow body electric versus an acoustic. I made another taller bridge and brought it down slowly and stopped when the volume started falling off.

[drelb]

I'm hoping that a lower action and professional setup will ease my play on my Silver Angel F. I just bought a Collings MT and it plays great. Work on my F being done by Randy Wood outside of Savanah, Georgia. I got a call today...work complete, $120.
I'll let you know next week how she sounds after I pick her up.

[Ken Sager]

I'm thinking of kicking off a spam email campaign:

Lower Your Action to Increase Your Stamina, Volume, and Sustain

Look for it soon in a Junk mail box near you.