Andy Tobin Bouzoukis

[Reinhardt]

Well here goes. This is my very first post as a Mandolin Cafe Member so go easy on me!! I've being playing mandolin type instruments for nearly 40 years. Started off on a busted heap of you know what from Germany but I didnt know any different then so I thought it was fantastic!! Played tenor Banjo in an Irish Trad Band in the 80s called Fionnuisce and managed to get to see many continental countries of Europe free of charge as a result!!!

Had to give up the banjo because of muscular problems in my right hand, more than likely caused by bad technique and took up the bouzouki, mainly accompaniment.

Went through about 3 greek bouzoukis which all started to fall apart because of the heavy strings I was using and eventually progressed on to my first Joe Foley. What a difference!! it was fantastic. Have had 5 different Foleys over the years. I tend to buy and sell instruments a lot so these bouzoukis came and went except for one I had Joe build in 1996. This one aint goin nowhere. Its a fantastic instrument with plenty of volume, sustain and really cuts through in a session. stays in tune immaculately all the way down the fretboard. Joe's a great guy, very humble and approachable and will build you anything you want within reason. and his prices are very reasonalble also considering the workmanship. Highly Highly recommended.

Anyway, I've had a ton of bouzoukis over the years, Foleys, Abnett, Fylde, Farmilloe, Crump etc etc. my main reason for posting this post is to mention Andy Tobin, a Luthier from the UK. I did a search on the forum and didnt come up with many results for Andy which I found very surprising. I have 2 of Andy's Bouzoukis, a large and a small body. The large body is probably the best bouzouki I have ever played. Manus Lunny, Benji Kirkpatrick and many others particularly it seems around Spain ( Asturias) play them as well.

If you're in the market for a new bouzouki you could do worse than consider a Tobin. A really nice guy, a pleasure to deal with and prices really reasonable for what you get. Prices are on his website. I dont know Andy personally but have spoken to him on the phone once or twice. He sends you photos of your instrument at the various stages of construction which is a nice touch. Almost like getting an ultrasound of your baby as it develops!!!

Hope I didnt go on too much. looking forward to being part of the forum and as soon as I figure it out I'll post a few photos of the bouzoukis I own. By the way I hate the word Zouk!!!!

John ( AKA Reinhardt)

[Nick Gellie]

Well done for your first post John. Very informative.

So John, why get a Tobin over a Foley? Also what scale length is your Foley out of interest?

I had thought about getting a Tobin but the price difference made me go for a Foley.

[Reinhardt]

Hi Nick, I'll check out the scale length when I get home. It's standard long scale bouzouki, large body, 650mm?? I think. I still have it along with the 2 Tobins and a Phil Crump. The Foley has what joe calls Oregon Pine on the top, its a dark coloured pine/spruce, almost as dark as Cedar, with Indian Rosewood Back and Sides.

I'm always on the lookout for the perfect bouzouki . I suppose the reason I went for the Tobin was to get a slightly warmer tone with more bass which the large body Tobin definitely gives me. Not as loud as the Foley ( theres not much in it) but plently loud for sessions. I was so happy with the large body Tobin that I bought a small body one a few years later. They are both fantastic through a PA, both fitted with Headway Pick Ups and both came with Calton Cases which while indestructible are really really heavy.

The tobins and the foley are really different sounding instruments my favourite being the Tobin Large body, followed by the Foley and 3rd the Tobin small body. But then where does the Crump come in!!!! The honest answer is that I dont know yet. The instrument isnt played in at all yet and really needs a set up. I think the journey from California to Ireland didnt do it any favours so its still acclimatising but its really really good. Not quite where I would like it to be sounwise and set up wise yet but I'm sure it will get there. I have a serious dose of Musical Instrument Acquisition Syndrome which causes a lot of misunderstandings between my wife and I!!! But hey, at least I dont spend me money of gambling and drugs!! Plus, she doesn't really know how much I've spent on them. She's going to get a nice little surprise when I kick the bucket!!!

I see you've a nice collection yourself!! Heres a selection of mine below

2 Tobin Bouzoukis
Large Body Foley
BIII Crump ( with amazing sunburst)
Greek Bouzouki from Salonika , my first, now practically unplayable but huge sentimental value
Gibson Tenor Guitar 1935
Martin Tenor Guitar 1959
Regal Tenor ( I think)
Kanilea K1 Tenor Uke
Gibson Army and Navy Style Custom Mandolin from mid 90s ( this is a rare one I think) signed by Steve Carleson ( I think thats his name, used to be head honcho in Flatiron Mandolins I think!!).

Tale care Nick, I'm sure we'll talk again,

John

[Clement Barrera-Ng]

Great post John, and welcome to the Cafe. Back when I was dabbling with Citterns/Bouzoukis etc, both Foley and Tobins caught my eyes in a big way. Both seemed to share some of the same aesthetic qualities that I like, and if memory serves the Tobins had a slightly deeper body depth. In any case, I did get to own a beautiful Foley cittern, but I have yet to see, let alone play, a Tobin. Glad you get to try a few and share your experience.

Just one tiny gripe though.... no pics?

[Reinhardt]

Great post John, and welcome to the Cafe. Back when I was dabbling with Citterns/Bouzoukis etc, both Foley and Tobins caught my eyes in a big way. Both seemed to share some of the same aesthetic qualities that I like, and if memory serves the Tobins had a slightly deeper body depth. In any case, I did get to own a beautiful Foley cittern, but I have yet to see, let alone play, a Tobin. Glad you get to try a few and share your experience.

Just one tiny gripe though.... no pics?

Hi Clement, see photo of me playing the Foley at a gig in the Czech Republic a few years ago, town called Budovice. Piper is Martin Nolan who is fantastic with the equally fantastic Kevin O'Connor
Not sure if that attached or not

[Reinhardt]

Hi Clement, previous pics a bit small I think, heres another one of me playing an Abnett I used to own with a friend of mine Tom, playing my large body Tobin. Have since sold the Abnett to Tom, just didnt suit me and have added a black pick guard to both Tobins. One thing I forgot to mention about the Tobins. Andy uses a very light finish on them. very very thin satin finish. Can Scratch easily hence the need for a pick guard for me. Thats my dog Bonnie by the way!!!! Another pic of a small body Foley which I sold recently ( better than the Abnett in my opinion but small bodied bouzoukis just dont do it for me I'm afraid!!).

[Reinhardt]

Sorry Clement, made a mess of loadin the Pics. Thats actually the Abnett in previous post. I'll just have to get my daughter to show me how to load pics properly.

John

[Nick Gellie]

John. Interesting that you have had a few bouzoukis in the past. Why is the 1996 Foley different to the rest? Is it the wood combinations? I have also thought Tobin's instruments are pretty good. Is there any difference in the playability of a Tobin instrument compared to a Foley?

Myself I have really enjoyed my Foley. However, the scale length really means that it is an accompanist style instrument unless one capoes up the neck. Maybe a 580 mm scale instrument would suit me better as I have relatively short fingers. I also would prefer I slightly smaller body size so that the instrument sits more comfortably.

[Reinhardt]

Hi Nic, you're not going to believe this, but I just bought another bouzouki today,Its a Nigel Forster 2007 model, still listed in the CBOM classifieds. I'm a wee bit Mad I think. I'm going to finance it by selling my MGB Roadster. Yeah you guessed it, my mid life crisis car. Well its served its purpose and its a bit difficult to play in sessions anyway!!!! Should be getting the Forster on Friday or Saturday. Buying it from a proper gentleman named Adam Rhodes who plays in an Isle of Man band called Barrule. They are really top notch. check em out on Youtube, ya wont be dissapointed.

Back to your question re the Foley, difficult one to answer. I've had 5 of them and all were different. I've even played foleys made in the same year 1996 as the one I have with he same wood combinations and they sounded totally different, not necessarily better. I'm no luthier but I'd say it has to do with the quality of wood or maybe the batch the wood came from for the soundboards . I now quite a few bouzouki players here in Dublin and I have to say that the most pleasing to my ears was one made by Jore in the late 80s which was a large body with cedar top and mahogany back and sides, it was and is a really sweet instruments with a beautiful warm tone and really keeps its brightness when capoed down the fretboard. I have found that Joe's cedar tops dont have as much sustain as his spruce tops but they do sound warmer. Hope that makes sense. Joes workmanship is always exquisite though.

with regard to what you're saying about reach on the long scale neck for playing tunes, I can understand exactly what you mean. I came from a tenor banjo background and i have to say I found it a bit of struggle as well but thankfully I have longish fingers which helps. I also found I had to change my fingering positions that I used to use on the tenor banjo to play tunes on the bouzouki. Dont ask me to explain that one!! Another bouzouki pal of mine Sean Howley, plays a Manson Bouzouki from circa 1980 which is a fantastic instrument in great shape. Sean plays in ADAE tuning and plays a mixture of accompaniment and tunes really well . He keeps a capo permanently on the 2nd fret and tunes down to get the ADAE. Sounds great, he doesn't use a capo for tune key changes by the way and I have no idea where he got the ADAE tuning from.

My old Abnett might have suited you. Its the one in the black and white photo above .small body and slightly shorter scale than normal. Probably 630/620mm ish...

Take care Nic. I'll let you know how I get along with the Forster. You dont want to buy an MGB buy anu chance????

John

[Clement Barrera-Ng]

Thanks for the photos John and they came out great. I saw that Forster when it hit the classifieds and I'm glad it's going to you. I did watch a video from Barrule a while back (the same one Adam linked to in his ad) and they are, as you said, fantastic. I just hope they will tour North America again soon. Do let us know how you like the Forster when you receive it.

[Reinhardt]

Thanks Clement, I'm pretty excited about the new arrival.Adam has been a pleasure to deal with. Check out his other band Imar. They have the most fantastic concertina player. not sure if they've released any CD yet. There are a few great scandinavian bands that feature bouzouki or CBOM Style instruments that in my opinion all CBOM players should check out. The obvious and most famous is Vasen who feature the Great Roger Talroth ( mainly guitar though) , but I've come across a few interesting ones. A great band and not very well known in these parts and possibly US is Trio Mio. Their Pigeon Pieces album is just gorgeous. Another band of relative youngsters is Dreamers Circus. Their bouzouki player is really interesting. Just thought I'd mention it as I'm not sure if these bands tour or are known in the US.

Of course I'll let you know how I get on with the Forster. I really have too many instruments. Its gettin a bit out of control to be honest. I just find it so difficult to sell on instruments as each one usually has some sentimental value and I've found that just as I'm about to hand over an instrument for the last time to its new owner, that when I have my final strums on it , it usually sounds better than it ever did at its best. Its almost like the instrument is saying please dont sell me I like it here!!!! See... I Told ya, I am mad!!! Keep on strummin Clement and check out those bands.

John

[Reinhardt]

Thanks Clement, I'm pretty excited about the new arrival.Adam has been a pleasure to deal with. Check out his other band Imar. They have the most fantastic concertina player. not sure if they've released any CD yet. There are a few great scandinavian bands that feature bouzouki or CBOM Style instruments that in my opinion all CBOM players should check out. The obvious and most famous is Vasen who feature the Great Roger Talroth ( mainly guitar though) , but I've come across a few interesting ones. A great band and not very well known in these parts and possibly US is Trio Mio. Their Pigeon Pieces album is just gorgeous. Another band of relative youngsters is Dreamers Circus. Their bouzouki player is really interesting. Just thought I'd mention it as I'm not sure if these bands tour or are known in the US.

Of course I'll let you know how I get on with the Forster. I really have too many instruments. Its gettin a bit out of control to be honest. I just find it so difficult to sell on instruments as each one usually has some sentimental value and I've found that just as I'm about to hand over an instrument for the last time to its new owner, that when I have my final strums on it , it usually sounds better than it ever did at its best. Its almost like the instrument is saying please dont sell me I like it here!!!! See... I Told ya, I am mad!!! Keep on strummin Clement and check out those bands.

John

[Nick Gellie]

John, I have passed my life crisis so I will pass on a MGB Roadster.

We will all be pretty interested in your new Forster bouzouki compares to your other bouzoukis. Now what I really interested in is what you think and feel makes a good Irish bouzouki since you have had a few. I have had a few and I think I now know what I want in a bouzouki or an octave mandolin.

I can play a 25" scale length which I what Foley is. I am more thinking of it as a rhythm instrument with no capo on. I like the idea of experimenting with an ADAE tuning and capoing it at the second fret and detuning it to GCGC or GDGC. I also think that a 58 cm scale length may work in either GDAD or GDAE tuning. I have discussed this with Andy Tobin and he agrees that this makes for a very versatile instrument.

Given that European Spruce and Indian Rosewood seems to be the preferred woods for an Irish Bouzouki, have you ever tried ones with Sapele or Mahogany or Imbuia or Ovangkol?

[fox]

Hi John, you certainly have a nice collection, Nigel Forster instruments have a good reputation, I will be interested in your opinion and comparisons.
I am envious of your 59 Martin tenor guitar (my birth year) how does it sound compared to the Gibson?

[Reinhardt]

Hi Fox, I was the born the year after you!! My two tenors are strange beasts. I must take photos of them and the bouzoukis that I have and post them. The martin which I bought from Mandolin Brothers in New York about 12 years ago has a slightly smaller body and scale length to the Gibson. The Martin is slightly louder and more responsive in my opinion. The Gibson is warmer and a bit quieter. I use various tunings on them. Sometimes GDAE for tunes and sometimes DGBE ( Chicago Tuning) for songs. I play the Uke so this tuning is the same as Baritone Uke. Its great for playing the old classics from the 20s and 30s. If only I could actually sing!! The funny thing is that the Gibson is better than the Martin when both are tuned GDAE and the Martin is Better than the Gibson when both are tuned DGBE. Told ya they were strange!!!

In terms of looks, the Gibson wins hands down, beautiful sunburst finish and old style friction tuners.

Both are practically useless in an Irish Trad Session though as they cant be heard. I play in a pub in Dublin occasionally with a group of guitar players where songs are sung , exchanged and advice and support given to singers and players of all levels. Great bunch of guys. I usually bring the Martin to that session and it works out great.

Now that I think of it, I think I have a photo of the Gibson here that features a snake!! Dont ask, just a bit of fun I was having with a friend of mine who as well as being a great singer songwriter also has a fascination for snakes and fishes, weird or what!! I'll try and attach that now, here goes.

John ( hope that attached)

[Reinhardt]

Hope it attached now

[fox]

Thanks John, it is nice to have a real life comparison without prejudice, you just need to buy a Blueridge now & compare that

[Reinhardt]

Hi Nick, got that message by the way. will get back to you on that.

Interesting question as to what makes a good Irish bouzouki.. To be honest, a lot depends on what and where you're actually going to play. Irish Sessions ( well here in Ireland anyway) can be noisy affairs, as in that there can be loads of musicians and loads of people in the bar who as the Guinness flows down get louder and louder. My bouzoukis dont drink so they stay at the same volume!! ( Only kiddin). My personal preference for a bouzouki first of all is volume. I play mainly now in sessions so you need a bouzouki that will cut through the pipes and accordions and banjos. Important for me that it doesnt take much effort to play and be heard, most important that I cam hear myself. However having said that, a noisy bouzouki with a crap tone wouldnt be very nice.

The loudest bouzouki I ever had was my first Greek Bouzouki which I played for years and years. I had a long long search to find a bouzouki that would match it for volume. eventually did in 1996 with the Foley that I currently have. That was my fourth Foley by the way . The previous 3 were really good instruments but just didnt project enough for me so they went off to new homes. When I compare my Foley to my Tobin ( large Body), The foley is louder , but not much but the Tobin is warmer, more base and better tone I think. The Foley is best in a Big Session ( over 6 musicians) the Tobin best in smaller sessions. My small Tobin is a good mix of the 2 but my favourite is the large Tobin.

I think if you regularly use capos which a lot of Trad Players do, that its important that the bouzouki retains most of its brightness/responsiveness higher up the fretboard. For instance if you're playing in A and have the capo on the 7th fret, some bouzoukis I've played get a bit deader and less responsive and need a bit more work to get an acceptable sound from. Dont know if that makes sense?? I think I said in a previous post that the best bouzouki I played that had this in spades was a Foley Cedar Top with Mahogany Back that a friend of mine plays. Lovely up the neck. but that bouzouki lost the sustain battle with my spruce top foley. My only worry for you with the shorter scale is that if you do use capos, firstly when you capo to 7th fret , it might get a bit tight fingering wise, i.e. not as much room for your fingers and secondly I personally dont think that short scale bouzoukis/citterns are as responsive up the neck as regular long scale ones. I'm open to correction on this but thats just my opinion. I used to have a Foley Mandola many years ago. This was fantastic for playing tunes but not great for accompaniment. Not sure what the scale was but it was long enough. The body was the same size as his large body bouzoukis.

My first Foley had Mahogany back and sides as did a fylde octavius I briefly owned. Foley was great, one of the first that Joe Built actually , 1978/9. I passed that one on to my pal Tom as i replaced it with a large body Foley about 1982. I also briefly had a small body foley more recently also with mahogany back, which was a great instrument but just didnt suit me. was a small body, I prefer bigger ones but the sound really cut through sessions and it had a great tone. Was better than a similar sized Abnett I used to own that had a rosewood back and sides.

Anyway Nic, I better get back to work here and I have to go home early today to get the Forster's bedroom ready before it arrives!!!!!

John

[Reinhardt]

Hi Nic, just remembered, theres a guy called Donal Siggins here in Ireland, I've played with him a few times but he's moved out west to the wilds of Mayo. He plays a Joe foley long scale Mandola, I think in GDAE. He never uses capos and gets a fantastic sound from it. Mainly accompaniment. He has a beautiful style, very talented guy also plays Guitar and a Mean Banjo. Anyway, he plays with his wife Emor Mayock who is a great flute player. Her first album, Merry Bits of Timber is just fantastic and features Donals Mandola Playing on practically every track. That album also features my regular Fiddle playing buddy Kevin O'Connor who also released a CD "From the Chest" which features Donal's playing prominently. If you're searching on youtube, theres more liklihood you'll find Donal if you search for Emor Mayock.

John

[Nick Gellie]

Thanks for that tip John. I will look him up. I have been chatting with Andy Tobin and he reckons that a 60 cm scale length is a good compromise between the zouk sounding like the real McCoy and stretch and playability.

I have also detuned my Foley to F#C#G#C# and put a capo on the first fret to make it GDAD and it is better for me even with the 5 cm reduction in scale length. Thanks for that tip.

[Nick Gellie]

I have found him playing here at various points in this clip:



and here too:

[Reinhardt]

Great Nic. if you've tuned your bouzouki down as described and if it suits you , you might have to consider putting slightly heavier gauges on the strings. They may be too "floppy" for you tuned down?? Just a thought. Expecting the Forster today or tomorrow at the latest. Theres a great thread going at the moment to which I've made a few responses re a Guitar Bouzouki build that Nigel is currently building for a fellow Irishman. Nigel responded to one of my responses re the Forster I'm getting. The thread is fantastic, very informative and also has photos of the bouzouki Nigel is currently building for Adam, the chap I'm buying my Forster from. Its a fixed bridge shorter scale than normal job with an interesting combination of woods. Check it out. Have a great weekend.

John

[Nick Gellie]

John, I think some sound clips and videos are in order for displaying your instruments. Do you have any or would you make one or two showcasing the new Forster bouzouki, along with the others?

[ukrobbiej]

I once borrowed an Andy Tobin for about a year. It was described as an octave mandolin, but really it was a short scale bouzouki. Lovely instrument, and I felt it was quite a exceptional play d finger style like this arrangement of mine:

[Reinhardt]

well played Robbie. Is that the Bleak Mid Winter?? Beautiful tune. I've never mastered finger picking. Must give it a go again. From where I'm sittin Robbie, looks like that scale is long enough. Could be the angle the instrument is facing the camera. Looks about the size of my small body Tobin. they are great instruments though aren't they.

Keep up the great work.

John