finger board extention usefull or worthless.

[DavidKOS]

Perhaps many pre-F5 instruments were classical by nature, yet the didn't have those extended Florida frets, which are nearly impractical to play for the masses.

This is not entirely accurate. There are pre-Loar mandolins with a Florida fret extension, such as the 1908 F2 owned by Loar himself.

It's about the repertoire you are playing.

A large amount (if not the majority) of classical music can be played on a mandolin with standard fretting. It's when you are playing certain literature that those frets are required.

[JeffD]

Someone keeps saying "there is no money above the fifth fret". Who is that person anyway.

[T.D.Nydn]

Someone keeps saying "there is no money above the fifth fret". Who is that person anyway.

I don't know, but I guarrentee it wasn't Joe Satriani, Steve Vai, or Eddie Van Halen...

[JeffD]

No, but I don't think whoever said it was hurting for money or success either.

[Chris Daniels]

Someone keeps saying "there is no money above the fifth fret". Who is that person anyway.

Wow, finding the originator of that adage is way more of a difficult puzzle than finding a 34 fret guitar.

But of relevance to this discussion, here's a quote from Tony Williamson (emphasis mine)

After his fame was secured, Apollon always had new Gibsons F-5s on hand beginning with a 1924 Loar and continuing well into the 1960s. Many of these mandolins are accounted for today. He never seemed to hang onto to any one for very long, always playing the shiny new ones. There was one killer late 20s fern that is associated with a lot of his work in the early 30s and I do not know where that one wound up. There was also the 1934 block inlay fern that must have also been a favorite and looks so great in the photos! He also had a whole nest of Lyon and Healys As and I have owned several that had the Apollon fingerboards. But I didn't get too excited, there were several great players in the 20s and 30s (especially in NYC) that demanded facility in the fingerboard extension. I guess that hadn't yet heard the sage words of Stringbean, "there's no money past the 5th fret!"

C.

[T.D.Nydn]

That's awesome,,,,it was Stringbean!..

[Stevo75]

Thile has the scooped extension so he's not playing up there. If he doesn't need it, I certainly don't.

I have seen videos where Dave Apollon played up on the extension (and yes, removed a fret to make that possible), and other videos where classical mandolinists play up there, but in everything I have seen it was just to hit one high note. It's not like they were playing scales up there, just the one note.

[lflngpicker]

Whatever it lacks in functionality, I love the way it looks! It is a great aesthetic feature of the prettiest instrument in the world!

[varmonter]

Well thanks much for the thoughts....I can see the tradgrass crowd cringing when they read this thread...you know who you are.
something about bluegrass that just barely tolerates a mandolin that isn't a gibson or a guitar that isn't a martin...not sure why
but tradition seems deeply steeped in this genre. That being said here is a clip of that little girl...oh whats her name??
Playing a loar...listen for the pick click..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqCTEbA6QbI

She is so much better than me ...yet that would annoy me to no end..granted they are not gonna saw anything off that mandolin.

here is thile...hard to hear any clicks...he is a master.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0h_CdTa-2-U

[s1m0n]

It is a great aesthetic feature of the prettiest instrument in the world!

You know, I'm willing to discount an awful lot of "homer's pride" by musicians of one sort or another, but in the case of the florentine mandolin, I have to admit you have a point. It really is an excessively beautiful instrument.

[DataNick]

That being said here is a clip of that little girl...oh whats her name??
Playing a loar...listen for the pick click..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqCTEbA6QbI

She is so much better than me ...yet that would annoy me to no end..granted they are not gonna saw anything off that mandolin.

To be fair, Sierra's regular mandolin, her Gibson Harvey signed F5 Master Model which I've played btw, is scooped; so she's not in the habit of adjusting her picking style to accommodate for the Florida...and she's arguably the best non-classical mandolinist this side of Thile...YMMV

[varmonter]

To be fair, Sierra's regular mandolin, her Gibson Harvey signed F5 Master Model which I've played btw, is scooped; so she's not in the habit of adjusting her picking style to accommodate for the Florida...and she's arguably the best non-classical mandolinist this side of Thile...YMMV

I agree not taking away from her...just that even someone of her caliber has an issue with it. I am not sure i want one on my new to me mandolin..

[DataNick]

I agree not taking away from her...just that even someone of her caliber has an issue with it. I am not sure i want one on my new to me mandolin..

Yup, you do have to adjust your technique...

[Ivan Kelsall]

Having both read & contributed to this thread yesterday,while i was having a practice yesterday afternoon i did stray above the 12th fret as far as the top 'A',but much above that,although you do get a 'note',they're hardly worth playing, & i can't think that they would add very much to even a 'classical' mandolin piece. They're not so much of a note as a 'plink with tone' - gone almost before you hear it,
Ivan

[Ausdoerrt]

Am I the only one who likes the pick click? Crazy I know. But I actually feel like the extension helps me hit the strings more reliably/accurately. May just be a beginner's crutch, though.

[fscotte]

The click is akin to the string squeek you hear alot in 70's acoustic guitar albums. It adds a certain amount of human authenticity to the music.

[Tom Haywood]

I ascribe to an old horseman's theory: It's safer to have spurs on and not need them than to need them and not have them on. Twenty-four frets on a mandolin gives you three complete octaves to work with in the E scale with a fourth E note at the top. That requires some kind of extension over the body. Twenty-seven frets gives you four full octaves in the G scale, which in a sense makes the mandolin complete from lowest to highest note. Most of us will never play in those upper octaves, and those frets are in the way of our pick. It's far easier to pull off frets and scoop the extension if you don't need those notes than it is to find a lumber stretcher and add those notes on the occasion that you do need them. If you play in an orchestra, that occasion is likely to arrive.

[T.D.Nydn]

You know, I'm willing to discount an awful lot of "homer's pride" by musicians of one sort or another, but in the case of the florentine mandolin, I have to admit you have a point. It really is an excessively beautiful instrument.

The F mandolin has actually 2 points...

[DavidKOS]

Well thanks much for the thoughts....I can see the tradgrass crowd cringing when they read this thread...you know who you are.
something about bluegrass that just barely tolerates a mandolin that isn't a gibson

Amen to that

Having both read & contributed to this thread yesterday,while i was having a practice yesterday afternoon i did stray above the 12th fret as far as the top 'A',but much above that,although you do get a 'note',they're hardly worth playing, & i can't think that they would add very much to even a 'classical' mandolin piece. They're not so much of a note as a 'plink with tone' - gone almost before you hear it,
Ivan

Well that's your opinion, but I like the sound of a nice really high plink on those very high pitches. Add a tremolo and it's really a cool sound.

You mustn't like the sound of a Greek baglama then either - it's all "plink".

I ascribe to an old horseman's theory: It's safer to have spurs on and not need them than to need them and not have them on. Twenty-four frets on a mandolin gives you three complete octaves to work with in the E scale with a fourth E note at the top. That requires some kind of extension over the body. Twenty-seven frets gives you four full octaves in the G scale, which in a sense makes the mandolin complete from lowest to highest note..

This is logical and one of the reasons for the long fingerboard.

[Ky Slim]

...... so she's (Sierra is) not in the habit of adjusting her picking style to accommodate for the Florida...

I wish I could say the same about myself but I tend to reposition my hand to avoid the click noise. So I've been considering having my fretboard scooped or just cut back. Mine isn't a Florida or an abbreviated Fla. It has 24 full frets for all strings. I like the tone and hand position when I am picking somewhere above the 22nd-23rd frets but the click distracts me.

[JeffD]

Thile has the scooped extension so he's not playing up there. If he doesn't need it, I certainly don't.
.

[DataNick]

Well thanks much for the thoughts....I can see the tradgrass crowd cringing when they read this thread...you know who you are.
something about bluegrass that just barely tolerates a mandolin that isn't a gibson

Amen to that

Who are you guys hanging around?

In 6 years of being in the bluegrass scene and 5 years of playing mando I've never heard that sentiment at either festivals, club events, or mando tastings.

In fact, of the 15 professional bluegrass bands in San Diego, and the 4 or 5 in LA, to my knowledge I'm the only guy that plays a Gibson as his primary instrument.

Now if you're talking about the F5 style versus an A model, yes that's true, but the brand Gibson as far as any snobbery from other grassers if you play something different? I've never seen it. Where do you guys get this stuff?

It makes for snarky comic relief, but from my perspective it's pure fiction!


Carry On back to the thread...

[Jeff Mando]

In the example of the guitar -- sure looks cool -- also seems to be in the way of the right hand -- I guess those are technically "notes" up there, but really seem to be used only for special effect, IMHO. (that is, not playing a flowing melody line within a song) Great, if you need it. Most don't. Same with mandolin, I don't need it, but I think it looks cool, so I've got one, Florida, that is.

[Charles E.]

Back when I worked for a shop doing fretted instrument work we did a fair amount of 'scooping' of the extension, it was kind of fun to do to be honest. As a player I would never own a mandolin that had the extension, it just gets in the way. Even Gibson makes great sounding mandolins without them.

Buy what makes you happy.

[Hendrik Ahrend]

During my first 25 years of playing I never thought of the florida being a problem. For the last 15 years, while it became fashionable to get rid of that extension, I kept wondering why I have never had any problems with it; here's what I found: I've always kept my action fairly high at about 2 mms (clear above the 12th fret, all strings). Secondly I play with a teardrop shaped pick (BC 45) using a round "corner", much like AFAIK Doyle Lawson and Frank Wakefield. At one point I tried a big triangular - all of a sudden annoying pick noise.

Also, to me the extension looks good.