Phoenix Jazz Mandolin review

[Barry Canada]

I just wanted to provide feedback about my recently purchased Phoenix Jazz mandolin. I have played so many different mandolins throughout the years and have been disappointed that Phoenix mandolins haven't received the attention I feel they should receive and deserve.
I've had a Phoenix Neoclassical mandolin which had a K&K pickup for a number of years originally discovering information about them through this forum. It was great for jazz and classical. I loved the softness and overall playability of the instrument. The build quality, finish and feel of the Phoenix instruments are outstanding and second to none. In my experience they are physically the easiest instruments to play to the point that I would recommend them for beginners and any player with troubled hands like arthritis etc. However they are not beginner level in terms of cost.
The sound is a little subdued in sound projection relative to my other mandolins utilizing typical phosphor bronze strings. This may be due to the fact that the Phoenix's were designed to twin with Thomastik Mittel strings.
During his past summer I had the opportunity to trade the Neoclassical for a Phoenix Jazz model which was available at the Mandolin Store. (By the way the staff were more than great to deal with (I happen to live in Canada where we don't get too many mandolin choices!)
This Phoenix Jazz mandolin is scrumptious! The sustain is amazing. The touch and overall playability blows me away. Choice of woods is more than beautiful. I play in a combo and there was an immediate notice by the other musicians of the improved "Jazz specific" sound spectrum.
Trust me, I am not comparing this instrument to low end mandolins for comparison.
There are heavier evo frets on these instruments which improves the playing performance. The radiused fingerboard is right on as expected from Phoenix mandolins. The Jazz model is matched and built specifically to accept the tonal qualities of the Thomastik Heavy strings. I would imagine these were specifically chosen during the design process as we would expect from Rolfe. The instrument is a heavier built instrument to accommodate the increased tension from the heavies. Overall the Phoenixes are lighter weighted instruments, sort of like violin weighting and craftsmanship. (I am not a luthier myself but I do know how to change my own strings!)
The magic of the instrument for the Jazz application is further provided for by the well thought out and designed double pickup system. Here we have a piezo alongside a beautifully mounted magnetic pickup. A stereo cable is necessary to run each pickup independantly to your choice of amplification. I have been playing with different amplification systems including Boss PA systems, Roland AC33 acoustic amps, Vintage fender Super champs and others. The variability and ease of application is just wonderful and imagine this: NO feedback issues. The combination Piezo magnetic pickup system is a gift. I have tried piezos microphones (yes high end DPA's also!), combinations, preamps, anti feedback devices. I have drawers full! This system is outstanding. I think Rolfe realized the need and worked with the magnetic pickup company to develop a workable pickup along with a practical pickguard design which could integrate as a duo system alongside the piezo.
I discovered and purchased a Phoenix instrument through the recommendations of cafe members. I would imagine these instruments lose their appeal because they do look different and definitely do not look like the normal dream of the F's! We are lucky to have had Rolfe develop this type of design over his many years of luthier dedication. I had the pleasure of speaking to him on several occasions by phone. I discovered the Jazz model through the Jazzmando site. (There was once a review of this model published on the Jazzmando site.) Now that Jazz mandolin is reemerging as a more popular genre I certainly believe there should be more interest in this wonderfully thought out instrument. By the way I have absolutely no financial interests here. I have just had so much joy with this instrument since opening the case. It was a surprise from day one. I am sure future mandolin designers will discover some of Rolfe's findings and integrate these principles in their own instruments making processes. Cheers from a happy Mando player!

[Barry Canada]

I forgot to add the links to the Builder site and Jazzmando review for reference!
http://www.phoenixmandolins.com/jazz_model.htm
http://jazzmando.com/rolfe_gerhardt.shtml

[MortenIb]

Thank you for the post Barry!
I'm currently playing on a Loar lm-700. I play mainly jazz and classical and I have tried bringing my mandolin to rehearsals (I play with a bass player and a drummer - normally I'm at the piano) a few times, but we have huge problems with amplifying the mandolin to the point where I don't think it's feasible for us to include it.
I have tried using a clip-on microphone (similar to the DPA ones), but I find it very hard to reduce the clicking noise. That's why I'm thinking about saving up for a Phoenix Jazz. The only problem is that there are almost no way I can try one out before buying (I live in Denmark where the mandolin is a super niche instrument) and there are almost no sound examples on the internet. Everywhere people say that it sounds amazing, but I still have some questions I hope you could answer:

How big a difference in sound can make by adjusting the level of the magnetic pickup to the piezo? Does it range from sounding almost like an electric jazz guitar to sounding almost acoustic?
Does the increased sustain of the mandolin mean a big sacrifice in acoustic volume?

If you have the time I would really appreciate a sound sample for example on soundcloud.
The Phoenix jazz mandolin almost sounds like the perfect mandolin for me, and I really want to be persuaded and buy it

-Morten

[Jim Hudson]

Not a pickup guru but payed a friend's Phoenix at a jam and was surprised by the volume and presence of this instrument. My first impression based on looks was influenced by my prejudice towards "traditional" designs, but the music it produced was truly impressive. It was a two point, not sure if it was the "jazz" model or not, just wanted to put two very positive cents in for Phoenix mandos.

[Pittsburgh Bill]

I just wanted to provide feedback about my recently purchased Phoenix Jazz mandolin. I have played so many different mandolins throughout the years and have been disappointed that Phoenix mandolins haven't received the attention I feel they should receive and deserve.

I was unaware of any lack of respect and admiration for the Phoenix NeoClassical or Jazz mandolins outside of the world of bluegrass (of which I have little knowledge).
I have just commissioned a mandola build that I hope to capture some of the acoustic sound/tone attributes of a Phoenix Jazz mandolin. Just 1/5 lower.

[Bob Clark]

Thanks for posting this, Barry. Just wanted to give a +1 for the Phoenix line of mandolins. I love my Neoclassical. I don't need the pickups or I might be looking at a Jazz. I simply could not be happier with my Neoclassical.

Morten, I hope you get a chance to try one of these. They are really amazing instruments. Superb to play, with a sound to match.

Best wishes,

Bob

[DavidKOS]

I was unaware of any lack of respect and admiration for the Phoenix NeoClassical or Jazz mandolins .

Nor I - mostly all I've heard about the brand is very positive.

[Barry Canada]

Hi Morton,
Firstly it's nice to hear from you all the way from Denmark. I understand how difficult it is to choose an instrument without having the opportunity to have a test run. If you were here I would gladly let you try mine. There are so few of these around to begin with. I will attempt to answer your excellent questions.
The instrument maintains a mandolin sound even with the the magnetic pickup but it is more of a jazz hollow body electric guitar sound. The nice thing about the double pickup system is the way the piezo balances out the sound. I have a Ryder solid body electric mandolin which sounds more like a higher pitched guitar as it was meant to be. The Phoenix maintains a jazz sound. I play it through either a Roland acoustic AC33 or Trace Elliot TR 50 acoustic amp to maintain the natural sound quality. Consider that you will need for a good acoustic amp which has two channels to accept both pickups via a stereo 1/4 inch jack. Another option is to plug it into a Radial Tonebone Preamp which accepts two inputs (great versatile preamp by the way) and then sending it to your amp or PA.
Your second question addressing your concern about volume is definitely not an issue. You DO NOT have to plug this instrument into an amplifier. I find that the volume unplugged is louder than the neoclassical I traded. (By the way I noticed there is a neoclassical up for sale in the classified and I have NFI!) If I want a good chop to play bluegrass I will used my bluegrass mandolin however the chop is far superior than what I was getting out of the Neoclassical I previously owned. This instrument uses thomastics which in general doesn't give you that traditional metallic chop sound. I haven't tried the instrument with phosphobronze strings. Maybe someone out there in Mandolin Café land cyberspace who has tried could comment.
I don't have time in the next few days to record. I could probably get something together next week for you.
I hope this helps! If you want any further information don't hesitate to ask either in this thread or by PM.
Barry

[NewKid]

Thanks for the great review Barry! Was your Phoenix Jazz made by Rolfe or new Phoenix owner Jenny Warner?

My 2009 Phoenix Bluegrass is signed by both Rolfe and Jenny.

[Barry Canada]

To all posters,
Please don't get me wrong. I never wanted at all wanted to imply any non-respect or non-admiration for these instruments. I just find they deserve MORE attention than they get. I was originally swayed away because of their apparent non-traditional construction and look but jumped onto a neoclassical after doing some research and speaking with Rolfe. Rolfe ( a wonderful guy by the way! who I spoke to on several occasions but unfortunately never met!) spent decades dedicated to working on this design. If they looked like Loars they would sell out but Wouldn't be Phoenixes.....They are just different....
Hi Newkid, mine was built by Rolfe I believe.

[pops1]

If I remember these are not built to handle higher tension strings like you might use for bluegrass. The Thomastik strings don't have the tension of a regular set of phosphor bronze. They're G in the heavy set is only like a .034 as compared to a .040 in most sets you would use for bluegrass. I would talk to Rolfe before trying something else.

[Barry Canada]

Thank you Pops1,
ABSOLUTELY you must consider the tension of the strings as prescribed and suggested by the builder. This applies to all acoustic instruments. But you are not limited to Thomastik's on the Phoenix instruments. This has become a misconception with regards to Phoenix mandolins.
Jenny the present owner of Phoenix Mandolins will certainly help you out with your string choices. She has helped me out!
Don't just throw on any strings! A great advantage of These instruments is that they perform wonderfully with lighter and lower tension strings (as originally mentioned in my original post) making them easier to play.
Best, Barry

[pops1]

Barry, the Phoenix line can use any string, it is only the jazz that is built for less tension.

[Bob Clark]

Barry, the Phoenix line can use any string, it is only the jazz that is built for less tension.

Actually, the Neoclassical bears a label inside that states that it is made for light strings, and specifies 1st=.010, 2nd=.015, 3rd=.022 and 4th=.034 It also says that heavier strings may result in damage. A special design feature of this mandolin is that it performs well with these lighter strings (and it really does!).

[Barry Canada]

I sent a request and welcomed Jenny to join this discussion and clarify the different string types and gauges appropriate for the different models she builds. She owns Phoenix mandolins and continues to build these wonders!
This is becoming a great thread! Please let's NOT get into pick selection!
I would like to add this from my point of view: I do not see why anyone would not stick with Thomastiks on the Jazz model as this model is designed specifically for Jazz and these strings jive with this model and have lots of Mojo!
But let's see what Jenny will come out with!
Barry

[pops1]

I agree Barry, I think the sound with the Thomastiks would be part of why you would buy this. I would love to have one of these, and I am not a jazz player, but they would work in many styles of music.

Thanks Bob, I was thinking it was the jazz, maybe it is both, but I knew on of the models was not built for heavier strings and wanted to mention that.

[Jenny]

Hi All, This is Jenny
First I would like to say Thank You for all your kind words.

Now onto strings...
The Neoclassical and the Jazz were both designed for Thomastik strings. Thomastik Mediums (Mittel) for the Neoclassical and Thomastik Heavys (Stark) for the Jazz. Both of these sets are considered "Light" in relation to most mandolin strings, i.e. J74s.

Both the Neo and the Jazz have a unique tone bar pattern literally dreamt up by Rolfe. When trying this new pattern he discovered that it worked very well with the Thomastiks but didn't sound as good with Bronze J74s.

Both the Neo and the Jazz are graduated thinner in the recurve than the other Phoenix models. The Neoclassical thinner than the Jazz. This is the main reason for not using heavier strings than recommended.

A few years ago Rolfe tried to build a model for the D'Addario Flat Tops, but he was unhappy with the sound and sold it with Thomastik Heavys instead. I didn't get to hear that one.

On my last pair of Neoclassicals I tried Fisoma supersolo on one and Thomastik Mediums on the other. The Es both broke before I could get them up to pitch. The As sounded REALLY good, but the Gs were so dead and tubby sounding I couldn't stand it. The Ds were not that good sounding either, but better than the Gs. If it had just been one string out of the pair, I would think it was just a fluke of the string, but all pairs behaved the same. I send that mandolin out with Thomastiks.

So That's what I can tell you about strings for now.

~Jenny

[MortenIb]

Thanks for the reply Barry! Yes, it is very hard. I'm also considering a german style bowlback, but I really could use the amplification of the Phoenix Jazz, so I think I will save up for that.
It's too bad I'm not in Canada now, I was in Ontario a whole year 2 years ago. I would have loved to try out your mandolin.

Do I understand it correctly if it you use just a regular jack and a normal amp, then only the magnetic pickup would be amplified?
Thanks for the recommendation on the preamp, it seems convenient to be able to use both pickups on any amp or PA.
It's good to hear that it has a good volume when playing acoustically, and even though I will probably not play too much chop-heavy music, chopping is still a unique mandolin sound so it is very positive to hear that it has a decent chop.
I would be so happy if you do get the time to record something. I would love to hear the acoustic sound the sound of each pickup.
Also the Phoenix mandolins look gorgeous.

Best,
Morten

[Jenny]

Morten,
Try talking to The Acoustic Music Co in Brighton, England.


I am trying to figure out a switch/volume knobs for the Jazz, to be mounted on the finger rest. I hope it will work out that you will just need a regular jack and not need a special pre-amp. Although a pre-amp will give more control over the tone.


For current Phoenix Jazz owners, I will retro-fit the controls for the cost of the pots/switch and shipping if they would like.
~Jenny

[MortenIb]

Wow Jenny, that sounds really cool! Do you have something a bit like this http://emando.com/images/pickups/Shadow_NanoMAG.jpg in mind, where the "knobs" are sitting on the edge of the finger rest?

I actually wrote Trevor in June about it (I have been dreaming about that Phoenix jazz for a while it turns out) but he said he isn't stocking them any more. But maybe I could try to place a special order or something.

[Jenny]

Something similar, with the wheels mounted under the edge of the finger rest. Out of the way and not very visible, but still accessible.
It's still in the planning stages.

[Barry Canada]

Further Information!
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/PARKER15
This is the stereo cable I presently use.
By the way I can connect it directly to my Roland AC33 or Trace Elliot without my intermediary Preamp. I have 2 Cuannels in each of these amplifiers. The Tonebone does give me more sound control though.
Here us the link for the Tonebone. It has been consistently highly reviewed in previous Mandolin Cafe threads.
http://www.tonebone.com/pzpre.php

[Jenny]

Also, the internal pickup is wired to the tip of the jack, the magnetic is wired to the ring of the jack, so you can pull the Jack out part way and activate the other pick up, on a mono amp. But you still need a stereo jack.

[Barry Canada]

There was a request for a sample recording of the Phoenix Jazz mandolin.
I posted 2 tracks on soundcloud.
The mandolin is connected to the Radial Tonebone PreZ and then connected to a Trace Elliot TA50 acoustic amplifier.
I recorded on a Zoom H4N recorder approximately 1 meter from the amplifier speakers.
Not the best recording but it should give you some idea. I recommending listening through headphones of a sound system.
https://soundcloud.com/user-72117150...-download-send
https://soundcloud.com/user-72117150...-download-send
Cheers,
Barry

[Barry Canada]

There was a request for a sample recording of the Phoenix Jazz mandolin.
I posted 2 tracks on soundcloud.
The mandolin is connected to the Radial Tonebone PreZ and then connected to a Trace Elliot TA50 acoustic amplifier.
I recorded on a Zoom H4N recorder approximately 1 meter from the amplifier speakers.
Not the best recording but it should give you some idea. I recommending listening through headphones or a sound system.
https://soundcloud.com/user-72117150...-download-send
https://soundcloud.com/user-72117150...-download-send
Cheers,
Barry