First Mandolin Advice Needed for Woman with Smallish Hands

[BelleHaven]

First, I have to say that having read lots of threads here as a guest, I have learned so much. I have been interested in trying the mandolin for awhile and after reading a posting along the lines of "In 10 years, you will be 10 years older...or 10 years older and playing the mandolin," I decided it was time.

My budget is up to $600 and I am drawn more to the A-style. I am also leaning toward an oval hole, but both of those preferences are just that and not firm. I am interested in playing Celtic and bluegrass. I play piano and can just reach an octave with my left hand FWIW.

Based upon my reading of the fora posts, it seems that an Eastman, The Loar, or a Kentucky what I should look at. Specific models I noted are Kentucky KM505, KM 272, Eastman MD404, The Loar LM 290 or 300.

I appreciate any input.

[Eric F.]

I really like the KM-505. I have no experience with the oval holes in the group you listed, and if bluegrass is in your future, I'd push you toward something with f holes.

Your hands shouldn't be a problem. Good luck, and enjoy.

[Sleet]

The oval hole may not cut it for bluegrass, but will be fine for Celtic and old time. I'm not familiar in real life with the models you've listed but, at least for these genres, I wouldn't overlook the value of a flat top, such as Big Muddy or Morris, in your price range.

Smallish hand might not be a problem, but my really small hands have a much easier time with some neck styles than others, and it makes a big difference in ease of playing. A deep U shape is harder for me to maneuver around than a shallow U or V shape. I can work with a less than ideal neck, and I'm sure you can too, but I really love one that fits better. The standard advice is to try before you buy, but even if you don't have that opportunity, don't wait that next 10 years. You'll miss too much fun!

[acousticphd]

I would lean toward Eastman and Kentucky as having better quality and sound, for the same cost. My encouragement would be to get the best A-style you can afford - and look for a demo or slightly used model if you can, in order to get the best/highest level of quality your $600 can buy.

Of those you mention in f-hole style, I would vote for the KM505.
I am not a lover of the Eastman tone, based on first-hand experience - most the Eastman instruments I've sampled sound a little thin. But what I do like very much is that they are emulating a true vintage Gibson oval-hole design. Ie, they are not just making an oval soundhole version of an A-5 instrument (which has a elevated fingerboard and longer neck, and is a very different hybrid instrument). So I would vote for an Eastman as an oval-hole choice in that price range, again looking for the best model you can afford.

Having smaller hands might affect chord formations you find yourself using, but really not much else. Having a good, comfortable setup is important. Good luck +1!

[Dave Sheets]

I'd just like to second the comment about set-up. Mandolins can be tough on the fingers due to the need to fret pairs of strings at fairly high tension relative to most other strings. The quality of the set-up work is critical to how hard the mandolin is to play, and how tough it is on your hands. An instrument that plays well will be less frustrating to learn on, even if you have to make a compromise on sound quality or appearance. If your hands are a concern, make sure you get an instrument with a good setup. Many of the advertisers on this forum have good reputations for setups, if you buy from a store that doesn't do top-notch setup work on the instruments they sell, you might want to leave room in your budget for a good setup. Finding a good mandolin luthier can be a challenge in some areas. If you are in an isolated area, the best bet is a used A body instrument from one of the premier mandolin shops that will ship and has a reputation for good set-ups. If you are handy, there is a highly regarded pdf guide by Rob Meldrum on doing your own setup.

[Capt. E]

An oval hole can be fine for bluegrass. Perhaps not as a primary interest, but certainly can work well. I play some bluegrass with my vintage Gibson A2 oval hole.
Where do you live? Is there as good store near you where you could get good advice and try an couple of instruments?
J Bovier instruments are one brand that has been getting great feedback lately. I don't care for The Loar instruments a great deal and prefer Kentucky over Eastman. You might think about a Kentucky KM-270 (sunburst) or KM-272 (blond). Very much below your budget at $349.00. Leaves lots of room for a good case and a good set-up. For some reason, I like these better than many more expensive ovals. Fiddlers Green Music Shop here in Austin has them stock and will treat you right.

[BelleHaven]

The oval hole may not cut it for bluegrass, but will be fine for Celtic and old time. I'm not familiar in real life with the models you've listed but, at least for these genres, I wouldn't overlook the value of a flat top, such as Big Muddy or Morris, in your price range.

Smallish hand might not be a problem, but my really small hands have a much easier time with some neck styles than others, and it makes a big difference in ease of playing. A deep U shape is harder for me to maneuver around than a shallow U or V shape. I can work with a less than ideal neck, and I'm sure you can too, but I really love one that fits better. The standard advice is to try before you buy, but even if you don't have that opportunity, don't wait that next 10 years. You'll miss too much fun!

Thanks for the response. I am really new to this and have never held a mandolin, just heard them. How do I know what shape the neck is? What you say regarding shape makes sense to me. There is not a store in my vicinity where I can try one out.

[BelleHaven]

Thank you. I have only heard the tones on the mp3 samples on shop websites and youtube videos. Interesting information about the oval-hole design. Again, all this is new to me and I appreciate the knowledge shared on this forum.

[BelleHaven]

It is funny how never having held a mandolin, I didn't think about the pressure needed to play. I played cello as a kid and now that I think about it, I can imagine the issue. Suddenly my guitar-playing brother's use of a handgrip strengthener makes sense.

As there are no real music stores close by, I was planning on ordering for one of the shops I saw discussed in other messages. According to their webpages, they do a complete setup. I saw that several shops have used inventory online, but I didn't see a used A-type that was in my budget which is why I was planning on going with a new instrument. Any suggestions for locating a used one are very welcome!

[BelleHaven]

I live on the Eastern shore of Maryland out in the country. Wish I could pop into the shop in Austin--that's a great city. I was wondering about the less expensive Kentucky models, as I am definitely not hooked on spending the most I can. I want to spend what it takes to get an instrument that is nice to play. My experience with less expensive pianos (digital and uprights) is that when the instrument doesn't give a good sound, I don't enjoy playing. I will check out the J Bovier, as I had not read anything about them.

[Mandoplumb]

If you can span an octave on piano I'll bet you couldn't the first time you tried. You'll have no problem noting anything on the mandolin but it will take some time and work but that's fun and fulfilling when you get it. Just don't take the I can't attitude. I second all the advice about set up that's very important but you can play bluegrass on a oval hole. Listen to Red Rector or a lot of Jimmy Martin's mandolin players playing his F4.

[gtani7]

Based upon my reading of the fora posts, it seems that an Eastman, The Loar, or a Kentucky what I should look at. Specific models I noted are Kentucky KM505, KM 272, Eastman MD404, The Loar LM 290 or 300.

I appreciate any input.

i've owned the km505, LM 300 and 2 eastmans and another kentucky. I think any of those would be fine, as would a Bovier or Howard Morris or flattop. It's best if you get to pick the one and play it before buying.

The huge differences: The Loar with bigger frets and Grover tuners, so easier to play. The other brands, I prefer their sound but i hugely disprefer the Eastman bridge and tuners, both need upgrading. Kentucky bridge is nice, the tuners on the one i kept, not so much.

_______________________________

When i was a kid i went to my piano teacher and told her it was uniquely difficult for me to play piano cause my fingers were too wide to fit between black keys. She rolled her eyes and tole me to keep practicing. You can read the first couple pages of this book about that issue: https://books.google.com/books/about...d=IbZOJIpgnNwC

[MediumMando5722]

Mandolins are small, so your hand size shouldn't be an issue. Also, there are endless ways to voice the same chords, so you'll be able to play comfortably. As far as a recommendation, I vote Eastman.

[CarlM]

It should not take a great deal of strength to press the strings down on a mandolin or guitar if it is set up properly. Most people press too hard and it hurts their playing. Making sure your fingers are placed properly is critical. Sometimes people will squeeze harder to get rid of a buzz that is happening because their fingers are on top of the fret instead of next to it. It is important, as others have noted, to be sure it is set up properly. A bad setup will make a great instrument painful to play.

As far as dealing with small hands, in some ways it is easier with smaller fingers that will fit between the frets especially up the neck. There are a number of examples of people who have overcome missing or badly damaged fingers to play guitar or banjo. I do not know of any famous mandolin players in that category but somewhat small hands should not be too big an obstacle compared to Django Reinhardt's burned hand leaving two fingers unmoveable or Barry Abernathy playing banjo with no fingers or Tony Iommi's missing fingers for a few examples. There are others also.

[harper]

BelleHaven,

My hands are about as small as yours. I can reach an octave on the piano, but find it a strain to play other notes within the octave at the same time. I have found that the most favorable features for me on a mandolin are:

• slender neck (nut width 1 1/8 inch or less)
• shallow neck profile (shallow U is easier than V, as mentioned above by Sleet)
• short scale (13 inches like a violin or a classical mandolin rather than the standard 13 7/8 inches)
• and, to a lesser extent, radiused fretboard rather than flat.

The short scale makes a big difference to me, especially when using the 4th finger in 1st position. Short scale mandolins were made by Martin, Lyon & Healy and others before 13 7/8 inches became more common, and you may be able to find one, though not in your price range.

Within your price range, I find these models easy to play, even though they are standard scale: Big Muddy or Mid-Missouri with standard (not wide) nut and Flatiron pancake style mandolin. I love both, but especially the big, clear, sweet sound of a Flatiron.

Some luthiers will make a short scale for you, such as Rigel, Morris, and Jacobson, but these are more expensive. I have had 2 made, an A4 by Morris and a Nautilus by Marty Jacobson.

Best wishes on your mandolin journey.

Evelyn

[BelleHaven]

It should not take a great deal of strength to press the strings down on a mandolin or guitar if it is set up properly. Most people press too hard and it hurts their playing. Making sure your fingers are placed properly is critical. Sometimes people will squeeze harder to get rid of a buzz that is happening because their fingers are on top of the fret instead of next to it. It is important, as others have noted, to be sure it is set up properly. A bad setup will make a great instrument painful to play.

As far as dealing with small hands, in some ways it is easier with smaller fingers that will fit between the frets especially up the neck. There are a number of examples of people who have overcome missing or badly damaged fingers to play guitar or banjo. I do not know of any famous mandolin players in that category but somewhat small hands should not be too big an obstacle compared to Django Reinhardt's burned hand leaving two fingers unmoveable or Barry Abernathy playing banjo with no fingers or Tony Iommi's missing fingers for a few examples. There are others also.

That is great info to know, Carl. I will soon be asking for book and lesson suggestions, but that's another thread.

Can I trust the advertisers here (retail shops) will do a good setup? How does one know whether a setup is good?

[UsuallyPickin]

Yes! Take a look at the Kentucky KM-900 and if you come into some money to spend buy a pre 1993 Gibson A5L, both are a copy of a 1923 / 24 Gibson mandolin made to order for a female player. If memory serves it is now named The Griffiths as it was made for her and is one of a kind. Either one will last you years or the rest of your life ...... unless MAS sets in. R/

[Mike Arakelian]

Hi Bellehaven, and welcome to the Cafe'. Regarding music stores, if you don't mind driving for a bit, there are two stores not that far from the Eastern Shore that you might check out:

The House of Musical Traditions
7010 Westmoreland Ave.
Tacoma Park, MD

Appalachian Bluegrass
643 Frederick RD.
Catonsville, MD

Both stores will have some decent entry level mandolins like Kentucky and Eastman as well as an occasional used instrument. I recently bought a very nice 1991 Flatiron at The House of Musical Traditions. You can check their web sites for availability. Good luck and enjoy your mandolin journey!

[BelleHaven]

Harper,
Thank you for the detailed info. When you say "Flatiron" is that a brand as well as a style? I checked out the A4 and Nautilus. Wow, those are beautiful instruments.

[BrianWilliam]

Based on reviews, I've had bad luck with Kentucky mandolins: 5 out of the 6 I've owned had twisted necks. Note that all of them have been used.

I've had better luck with the loar mandolins my favorite being the lm400. IMO, it was an excellent value. Great tone and playability for the money. I regret selling it.

Also, IME, fret size is not very relevant to playability.

Enjoy the hunt.

[LadysSolo]

BelleHaven, I also play piano and have very small hands- I can get an octave but 9 notes is impossible. I have a Loar LM 220, and it is easy to reach. I don't know any of the mandolins you mention, but when you get ready for another mandolin, look at the Pava - the neck is the easiest to play for small hands. But the mandolin neck is what drew me to the instrument initially, after playing guitar. So much easier to reach than the guitar! Have fun, and enjoy the ride!

[Bob Clark]

Hi BelleHaven,

Depending on how far you are down on the Eastern Shore, you might want to take a trip to Todaro's Music in Lansdowne PA (just outside of Philly). If you call ahead, Joe Todaro can let you know what he has in stock. He's really into the mandolin and would provide you with a wealth of information and some nice instruments to try out.

Have fun with your search. It can be a really good time!

[Folkmusician.com]

All the mandolins you mentioned are top choices at their price points. My seat of the pants advice, would be to lean toward the Eastman, but in the big picture, it probably doesn't matter too much. All of these are nice mandolins.

I would try to nail down F hole vs Oval hole. This will slim down the choices and make choosing easier.

Warmer more organic woody tone = Oval hole. Great if it is just you playing.
Brighter, punchier = F-hole. Good for bluegrass, and most other styles when playing within a group.

While there is a noticeable difference between the two, it is not so extreme that you can't use an oval for bluegrass or an F for celtic. If you are like most players, the difference gives you an excuse to have more than one mandolin!

Enjoy the shopping process. You are on the right track and everyone is giving good advise.

[Explorer]

BelleHaven, you are absolutely right about there not being any stores on the peninsula. If you were going to be in the DC area, I would second Mike A's suggestion to hit House of Musical Traditions.

I've helped friends with small hands find instruments they liked, and two of them wound up with Flatiron Cadet mandolins. The Cadet is a pancake-style mandolin, named for its flat top and back and round shape. Harper named two different companies' flat-top oval holes as easy to play. Flatiron made both pancake style and F-hole style, while Big Muddy (formerly named Mid Missouri) makes all flat-top, oval holes if I'm not mistaken, in a bit more of a teardrop shape.

To me, the F-hole mandolin has more bark, but isn't as sweet and doesn't have the sustain. If you're thinking of this as an accompaniment instrument for singing, I'd definitely say to go for the oval hole flat top.

Flatiron Cadet



Big Muddy

[Sleet]

BelleHaven, To tell you where I'm coming from, I can't reach my hand across an octave, and no amount of stretching, positive attitude or wishful thinking will make it otherwise, which you would find out if you walked a mile in my gloves. I really like the points Harper has made, and although I've never played a violin scale, it sounds like a dream. As far as how to tell what neck profile an instrument has, I've had pretty good luck communicating with the seller and letting them know what I'm looking for. It's a little bit of an exercise in faith, but I would think the well regarded site sponsors here would have encountered this question before and be able to make good recommendations. Best of luck and come join us over at the Newbies social group when you're ready.