Silverangel Econo "A"

[eastKYmando]

I have been a fan of your writings and all your videos Donnie and your enthusiastic endorsement of Ken's work is in part one of the reason I decided to get one. I still think Ken's mandolins have a really good sound, and can be made to play as easily as a Collings or a Pava. But I think Bill's point as well as my own, is that people should be aware that there will be some set up work involved once the mandolin is completed, and in some cases, much more than one expects. There are some trade-offs when doing an Econo model, and those trade-offs may be perfectly fine for some but may not be for others. That is all.

I will just close by saying that I really appreciate Bill's feedback as I know it's not easy to "stray from the pack" so to speak. I think this will be the last post I'd make on the subject as I don't want the thread to get locked down. If anyone is interested in my feedback you know how to reach me.

I appreciate your thoughts and concerns, as I'm sure Ken does as well. I just want you guys to know and understand that anything I post is from a personal and honest experience. Do I consider Ken to be a friend of mine? Absolutely. It's a friendship that has developed over the years, and I feel Ken is an upstanding guy. I know he puts a lot of heart and soul in his building, and how people feel about his work is of the utmost importance to him. I know it's always been that way with me, even back to the first one. I won't say that Ken's set up work is "bad", but I can understand where someone may have set up preferences that would vary from what Ken does out of the box. I've experienced this myself. Ken does live within a reasonable drive from me, so, in some cases I have went to his place, but to be honest Johnny Rushing is just as close and he does fantastic set up work. As I said in my previous post, I don't care who the builder is, I automatically assume I'll be making a visit to Johnny. As a matter of fact, I have a new build from another builder right now...great mandolin, needs a set up. Off to Johnny's I will go. I'm not going to criticize the builder or run their work in the ground over a simple set up job. Good instruments are worth setting up the way you want them, and nothing can be better than being in the shop with a set up man giving him feedback while he adjusts things. I know there are mandolins out there with impeccable workmanship and no doubt play like dreams.....BUT so does mine, with a custom set up to my specs. That was all I was trying to say. I've played other new products hanging on walls at dealers that I'd like to have, but with bad set ups. Some priced at $13,000. If I could afford one, I'd still go get a set up. I am in no way trying to antagonize any one, but as far as my friend goes......He does build great mandolins, and I would never misrepresent them in any way. If someone wants specific input from me about his work, feel free to message me any time. I've owned a bunch and know quite a bit about them. I don't claim to be the end-all of mandolin knowledge, but I love to play and I love playing my Silverangel.

[kyken]

I guess I might as well speak for myself a little. Just can't see this public forum as being a place where a man's integrity can be trashed. I'm surprised that it hasn't been stopped by now. I've tried to do all people fairly and to act and do the way I'd like to be treated. I offered full refund, deposit, all. I have to know what the problem is before I can resolve it. If I can't resolve it, I'm happy to build a new one to make someone happy. I know that set up work isn't my forte. Some guys are specialists in that, like David Harvey or Johnny Rush. I set my mandolins up to play the way I do because I like them that way. I figure if someone wants to change that, well they can. I just got a mandolin in from a man in PA for some bridge work, Heck, I couldn't play it the way he had the strings spaced. No separation between the E A D and G. I guess that comes from my violin making days. I like that space between each string, the separation. But hey, that's the way he likes it. He set it up that way. I didn't touch it. Killer mandolin, but hard to play that way. Good action and all, but all the strings were equal distance. I'm not a virtuoso, neither are you, but we play to our own amazement, right? It gives us an inner feeling of peace and happiness, contentment. Nothing bothers me as much as when someone isn't happy with my work, and I do whatever I can to fix it. My forte isn't set up, but a sound that is balanced from highs, mids, and down to the lows. It's like a band. If there is no bass player, you have a pitiful sound.I have worked 36 years to achieve the sound that I get from my mandolins. Nobody's perfect, are you? Sad that you have been malicious about me. It wouldn't make me feel good when I layed down at night. I'm aware that my mandolins are different. They are all great builders, and have their own ways, individual. But, I don't use a CNC for anything.I do it by hand.Therefore when you see it, feel it and hear it, it's mine, my own sound.Mandolins or any other instrument are not or shouldn't be like auto parts. Interchangeable. So, yes, you can see the makers mark on my mandolins, which is the way I want it. I hope this explains about myself a little. I'm not a mean vindictive person. I just want to build mandolins that have the sound that I think that they should have. If someone wants to raise or lower the bridge, change a nut for different spacing, put another tailpiece on or tuners, that's fine. For the price of these econos, my objective was to give you something that almost anybody could afford and yet has that full rich tone that is so often missing. So, I hope I have explained myself well enough and I'll let my sound speak for itself.

[pops1]

I was at a nice store today and played several guitars and mandolins. Instruments from Martin, Collings, Gibson, Eastman, Huss and Dalton, and more. In my opinion every one would need a setup for me to play. I ordered a mandolin from a prominent builder that everyone here knows, I won't say a name. When it came he called to see how I liked it. I said I lowered the strings by half and lowered height at the nut. He said really, I set that up especially low for you. Too many ideas how an instrument should be set up and each is different. I didn't have a problem and when I got done setting it to my preference it was fine. Anyone can mess up a string spacing, especially when doing a run of several instruments. I have changed the spacing at the bridge on several mandolins to make them the same. Sound of build, and quality of sound are the important factors for me.

I do not own a SA by the way so am not biased in either direction. Seems like everyone likes the sound, the rest is personnel.

[Pjones3]

Just was not my personal experience in fit, playability support and finish. I have purchased better, even much better at that price point. Just a personal observation, from someone that has purchased and owned about 30 mandolins in my lifetime, both US, import, small and medium sized builders. What I said was in response to someone that wanted a personal observation on the recent batch of Econo "A" mandolins built in 2016. I'm not the only one that posted misgivings. I also received a Private Message and a couple of emails from Econo "A" that would not post their experience because they feared backlash, because they didn't sing the praises of Ken Ratcliff.
Hear is the Private Message without the poster's name.

"I just read your post about the issues you had with your SA. I have the last one, #384 even though I was probably one of the first to inquire. Then never heard anything until I asked the status of them several months later, after he stopped taking orders. That is why I have the last one. I am only a beginner, but I have to agree you on the poor quality of work that was done setting the thing up. The nut and bridge slots are terrible along with the inconsistent string spacing. The bridge contact to the top is not very good at all. The "process" was non existent, an email telling me that he was getting started on it and another saying send the rest of the money, then another telling me it getting ready to ship. I do think with a better set up it will be ok.
Thanks," (Anonymous).

This was also my experience and I don't understand why.

I suspect a private message was meant to be private.....evidently not so....
Backlash, on a internet forum where people share opinions and experiences??
Am glad I don't live in fear of what others think of my honest opinions.....

[Skip Kelley]

I guess I might as well speak for myself a little. Just can't see this public forum as being a place where a man's integrity can be trashed. I'm surprised that it hasn't been stopped by now. I've tried to do all people fairly and to act and do the way I'd like to be treated. I offered full refund, deposit, all. I have to know what the problem is before I can resolve it. If I can't resolve it, I'm happy to build a new one to make someone happy. I know that set up work isn't my forte. Some guys are specialists in that, like David Harvey or Johnny Rush. I set my mandolins up to play the way I do because I like them that way. I figure if someone wants to change that, well they can. I just got a mandolin in from a man in PA for some bridge work, Heck, I couldn't play it the way he had the strings spaced. No separation between the E A D and G. I guess that comes from my violin making days. I like that space between each string, the separation. But hey, that's the way he likes it. He set it up that way. I didn't touch it. Killer mandolin, but hard to play that way. Good action and all, but all the strings were equal distance. I'm not a virtuoso, neither are you, but we play to our own amazement, right? It gives us an inner feeling of peace and happiness, contentment. Nothing bothers me as much as when someone isn't happy with my work, and I do whatever I can to fix it. My forte isn't set up, but a sound that is balanced from highs, mids, and down to the lows. It's like a band. If there is no bass player, you have a pitiful sound.I have worked 36 years to achieve the sound that I get from my mandolins. Nobody's perfect, are you? Sad that you have been malicious about me. It wouldn't make me feel good when I layed down at night. I'm aware that my mandolins are different. They are all great builders, and have their own ways, individual. But, I don't use a CNC for anything.I do it by hand.Therefore when you see it, feel it and hear it, it's mine, my own sound.Mandolins or any other instrument are not or shouldn't be like auto parts. Interchangeable. So, yes, you can see the makers mark on my mandolins, which is the way I want it. I hope this explains about myself a little. I'm not a mean vindictive person. I just want to build mandolins that have the sound that I think that they should have. If someone wants to raise or lower the bridge, change a nut for different spacing, put another tailpiece on or tuners, that's fine. For the price of these econos, my objective was to give you something that almost anybody could afford and yet has that full rich tone that is so often missing. So, I hope I have explained myself well enough and I'll let my sound speak for itself.

I would like to say that the time I have spent with Ken told me all I need to know about this man. One thing, he is generous with his time, knowledge, and material possessions. Ken is also a true gentleman! I don't know of anyone that has more of a gentle spirit that he. He has the best conscience of about anyone I have ever met. He would do anything for anybody! I know Ken would do whatever he could to please an individual with one of his mandolins. Just my 2 cents!

[eastKYmando]

I would like to say that the time I have spent with Ken told me all I need to know about this man. One thing, he is generous with his time, knowledge, and material possessions. Ken is also a true gentleman! I don't know of anyone that has more of a gentle spirit that he. He has the best conscience of about anyone I have ever met. He would do anything for anybody! I know Ken would do whatever he could to please an individual with one of his mandolins. Just my 2 cents!

Skip, from my experience with Ken, I concur. BTW played one of your A models this past summer, Adam Steffey had it. Awesome instrument. I really liked it a lot. Seems like it was redwood....sound right?

[jasona]

Some of you may know that I've posted on behalf of Ken's mandolins quite a bit. There is a reason for this. I have played Ken's mandolins since the late 90's. I've had a great deal of mandolins in my hands from many builders, some I've liked, loved and some not so much. In any case, I haven't found anything that would cause me to lay my Silverangels aside and say so long. I have owned several, not because any have been bad, but more because I just really enjoy playing them so much. I like to break them in and experience the "opening up". So, in response to some of the posts here on the thread, I have certainly had my share of new builds from Ken. Not once have I ever known Ken to be unfair in his policies, quality or prices. I currently have two F models built by Ken, one being a Redwood and the other a spruce. My spruce is probably the best playing mandolin I've ever had in my hands. It plays like butter and maintains plenty of power and tone with no buzzing on the frets. Now, with that being said...have they always been perfectly set up to my taste upon purchase, no. Ken is a wonderful builder, I challenge you to find another mandolin that sounds like Ken's. Not saying they're the end all, but for my taste the tone is a perfect blend of lows to highs. I've played others I like, but the price range is usually more than double that of Ken's. When it comes to set up, seems to me that preference and taste comes in to play and that goes with any instrument from any builder. I automatically take any mandolin that I play to my set up man, Johnny Rushing. He knows what I like in a set up and can do what I need without me even having to tell him. I understand and appreciate the craft and skill that goes into building a mandolin, but I also value a set up. If I have an instrument that's worth spending money to acquire, then I'm willing and insistent on giving it a proper set up. I know when I take mine for set up, he does it right while I'm there. As far as builders go, they may not always be the best set up guys. I've played several great mandolins by independent builders that would be even better with a good set up. I guess my point is, I don't expect setups from builders to always be spot on. I use set up guys for that. I don't even like all set up guys work, but when I find one I like, I use them on everything. If I was ever in the position to own a $20K mandolin, Johnny Rushing would be setting is up for me. As far as tuners go, blame the manufacturer. I'd venture to say we've all had our share of woes with tuners, "Had a set of (insert brand) on another mandolin and had no problems, but this set won't tune and the gears are tight and hard to turn." I know this, I've been enjoying Ken's mandolins for a very long time and look forward to enjoying them right on for years to come.

I agree with this for the most part (excepting the personal endorsement of Ken--I don't really know him). When Ken told me via email about his changing the bridges I got one sent from Steve Smith, and took it with the mandolin when I received it to the set up guy my instructor recommended, the late Larry Brown. When this mandolin came up in his queue he just had to call me he was so enthusiastic about it--"It has outstanding tone" he said, "comparing favorably" with a Smart and a Tucker he was also working on. He got things dialed in pretty well--he wanted to do a refret at the time as the bridge fit (and new nut for string spacing) but I decided on a dress only at the time. Eventually I got the frets replaced and fretboard dressed too.

I don't think anything personal is meant by criticisms--certainly not by me. I can't cut wood straight! But I don't think that not pointing out instrument shortcomings does anyone any service either, if respectfully given. These are hand made instruments at a really good price point that sound like much more expensive instruments, but are at these price points for a reason.

I do think different people have different expectations, and that is ok since we have different backgrounds. Because I was studying with a gigging musician I was told to expect to need further work on it to personalize it, which is why I made the booking with Larry before I even received it. Others will not have this advice. Also other builders make mandolins closer to what folks expect, and that is fine too.

I will say this in closing: this mandolin sounds great, flaws notwithstanding. I was just admiring its pop and how its matured in over the past 15 years--its really more than I deserve with my level of playing. I care nothing for what others think when they see it, but when they hear it, it turns heads. Several years ago I was at a workshop in San Diego with Mike Marshall, who came over to me after hearing it while I tuned and was warming up, asked after the instrument, and then took it and played on it for a few minutes while folks were tuning and otherwise getting ready. Only thing I regret is that he didn't hand me his Loar while he did!

[Br1ck]

Personally, I love going into a nice shop, playing everything under $3500, and not leaving with a frustrated longing for a mandolin better than the SA I have. Do I leave wanting some in addition to? Only sometimes. I've tried Webers, Pavas, Collings, and a few others. A Northfield F was pretty nice.

I bought my SA mandolin used from a banjo player, so I doubt it was set up special. Plays real good.

[Johnny60]

I have no axe to grind in this discussion. I've never seen or played a Silverangel "in the flesh", although all the ones I've heard on YouTube sound amazing.

However, as a long-time guitarist (40+ years) I can say that every single guitar I've ever owned needed some sort of set-up work to get it to play right for my wants, needs, comfort and playing style.

I once asked a shop owner who sells tons of Martins why the action was always so high on all of them. The reply was that Martin don't know if you're a thrasher or a gentle player, so they're all sent out with a higher action. It's then up to the player and set up guy to do the "tweaking".

The last 2 guitars I bought sounded great, but in both instances the nut was cut wrong and the high top E string kept being pulled off the fretboard every time I did a pull-off (literally!). A new nut, a fret dress and an action tweak sorted the problem out in both cases. One was a telecaster, the other a Martin.

As I say, no axe to grind here at all. Just some observations about instruments in general.

[jasona]

Going to hijack this thread to rave about the look of the A5 you listed in the classifieds Ken--what a gorgeous looking instrument!

[Northwest Steve]

Going to hijack this thread to rave about the look of the A5 you listed in the classifieds Ken--what a gorgeous looking instrument!

Ditto.....

[bbcee]

Ditto.....

Boy, is that nice!!

[jasona]

The link to the ad

[Br1ck]

They play and sound as good as they look. I'd collect them if I had the money. sound is subjective, but I have played nothing I like better in the price range. At under $1500, a used SA is a great value. It's kind of the opposite of an MT in aesthetic and sonic properties, MT being brighter and impeccably built, the SA woody and aged out of the box. Chocolate or vanilla? A scoop of each please.

[Mike Scott]

I am going to weigh in on the hijack. I traded the subject mandolin back to Ken for an F5. The mando in question is #337. Not only is that one piece back stunning, it plays well and the tone and volume are terrific. Had I not had a case of MAS that included scroll envy, I never would have parted with it. A great mandolin in all respects! The new F5 (Valentina) is only 42 days old, but sounds excellent and is a stunner to look at too...........

[Kevin Stueve]

Mike since you owned it, I have a question. I recently tried a different brand mando that had those golden age tuners and I found the knobs small an the turning action very stiff. As that is the only mando I've played that had those tuners am curious what you thought of the tuners on the SA

[CES]

Can't comment about that one specifically, but I have an Econo with, I believe, GA tuners, and they have functioned very well so far. The buttons are smallish, but not difficult to turn, and very stable. Not Waverlys, but very serviceable...

[Mike Scott]

They held tune very well. They were kind of stiff, but not overly so. I think the smaller knobs (than say the Grovers on my Morris, or any of the imports I've owned) play into that a bit. I don't mind a little stiffness as long as it stays in tune. I hate tuning and re tuning, and re tuning, etc, but hey, that's just me........

[bbcee]

I own econo #381. I think mine are GA tuners as well. I do find them slightly stiff, but I've gotten used to them, and they've been holding tune fine. They're beautifully relic'd.

[fscotte]

Hey, just for the record, and defense of Ken, I put a set of $90 Rubner tuners on my latest build and think the cheaper Grovers are better. This was the first time using Rubners and thought I was upgrading. The are a little loose, a couple are stiff, and one screwhead broke off the first time I tried installing it.

Builders can't always control the hardware they are getting. Ken isn't asking a lot of money for his builds. I know how much it costs to build one.

[Johnny60]

If I had the money, I'd buy that SA A5 in the classifieds - it looks great!

[Scott Rucker]

I'm happy to report that I'm in line for an A this year. I'm more than happy with the Silver Angel F that I've owned for over 15 years. It's the only F hole mandolin I play. I'm really looking forward to having another.

[pheffernan]

I am going to weigh in on the hijack. I traded the subject mandolin back to Ken for an F5. The mando in question is #337. Not only is that one piece back stunning, it plays well and the tone and volume are terrific. Had I not had a case of MAS that included scroll envy, I never would have parted with it. A great mandolin in all respects! The new F5 (Valentina) is only 42 days old, but sounds excellent and is a stunner to look at too...........

I too once owned #337 . . . before Catherine, before Mike, before Ken . . . and I think it's an awful lot of mandolin, particularly for that price point. I can't promise that you'll love the darker tonality, the fiddlesque playability, or the rustic aesthetic. Those characteristics are a matter of taste. I can promise that you'll love the way that Ken stands behind his instruments and commits to serving their owners: http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...07-Break-Angle

[Kevin Stueve]

well the temptation is gone. Which is probably good for my marriage