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Thread: Silverangel Econo "A"

  1. #26
    Fatally Flawed Bill Kammerzell's Avatar
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    Default Re: Silverangel Econo "A"

    Quote Originally Posted by Bogle View Post
    Seeing that Ken is beginning a new series of A's this year, how are you fortunate owners of the 2016's out there liking yours?
    Seeing you asked. I did not find the hardware on my Econo A to be very good. Tuners did not work well at all and the tailpiece was bent over touching the top of the mandolin. If you were going to get an Econo A you may want to ship Ken your hardware of choice. It is not "top of the line" as he says in a post above. Here's the post I'm speaking of.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Busman View Post
    "Beautiful instrument. How "econo" is it?"


    "The only thing I avoided was binding on the back, everything else is there like top of the line, and the price, well, I guess I'm crazy. The sound of this mandolin is off the charts, has it all, power ,deep rich tone, I'm happy with it to say the least."

    Ken B. Ratcliff



    I've changed the tuners and the tailpiece. I also had to have the nut changed as it wasn't slotted very well. I sanded and re-slotted the bridge saddle. Personal choice. Had a crack fixed near the bass side F hole.

    On the other hand is a very pretty mandolin and the sound is very good. Old world looks and sound. Just that the playability and functionality weren't too satisfactory out of the case.
    For $1400.00 including case and shipped, plus the $200.00 and the time and labor I've invested in it, it's a decent enough mandolin. I would actually sell it though, except my wife is absolutely crazy about the sound and it was named after her.
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    Default Re: Silverangel Econo "A"

    Quote Originally Posted by bbcee View Post
    I just bought a 2016 from a Cafe member, but it's been stuck in customs for two weeks - I'm hoping to have it in hand this week and join the happy campers!
    My sympathies... I had a similar problem with them about 4 years ago. Had to fax them all kinds of stuff. First reaction, you still use fax? Anyway, got there in the end after some degree of hassle and after parting with some €€€ in charges and tax...

    Hope you get it released soon!
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    Default Re: Silverangel Econo "A"

    I have had two Silverangel's. On both of these the hardware really was excellent. I still have the 'F' style. Both had really good hardware. The tailpieces were the bronze Orrico's, and the tuners were also absolutely fine in every respect. I believe the Orrico's are pretty much unobtainable at present, though, so Ken must be using something else now. I've not seen any very recent ones.
    Gibson F5 'Harvey' Fern, Gibson F5 'Derrington' Fern
    Distressed Silverangel F 'Esmerelda' aka 'Maxx'
    Northfield Big Mon #127
    Ellis F5 Special #288
    '39 & '45 D-18's, 1950 D-28.

  5. #29
    Registered User Boge Quinn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Silverangel Econo "A"

    Quote Originally Posted by willkamm View Post
    Seeing you asked. I did not find the hardware on my Econo A to be very good. Tuners did not work well at all and the tailpiece was bent over touching the top of the mandolin. If you were going to get an Econo A you may want to ship Ken your hardware of choice. It is not "top of the line" as he says in a post above. Here's the post I'm speaking of.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Busman View Post
    "Beautiful instrument. How "econo" is it?"


    "The only thing I avoided was binding on the back, everything else is there like top of the line, and the price, well, I guess I'm crazy. The sound of this mandolin is off the charts, has it all, power ,deep rich tone, I'm happy with it to say the least."

    Ken B. Ratcliff



    I've changed the tuners and the tailpiece. I also had to have the nut changed as it wasn't slotted very well. I sanded and re-slotted the bridge saddle. Personal choice. Had a crack fixed near the bass side F hole.

    On the other hand is a very pretty mandolin and the sound is very good. Old world looks and sound. Just that the playability and functionality weren't too satisfactory out of the case.
    For $1400.00 including case and shipped, plus the $200.00 and the time and labor I've invested in it, it's a decent enough mandolin. I would actually sell it though, except my wife is absolutely crazy about the sound and it was named after her.
    I have had no such problems with mine, in fact no problems at all. The tailpiece is fine on mine; the tuners are not the smoothest, but they work fine and do not slip, so I have not changed them yet. I could not be happier with my Econo A.

  6. #30
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    Default Re: Silverangel Econo "A"

    Quote Originally Posted by almeriastrings View Post
    My sympathies... I had a similar problem with them about 4 years ago. Had to fax them all kinds of stuff. First reaction, you still use fax? Anyway, got there in the end after some degree of hassle and after parting with some €€€ in charges and tax...

    Hope you get it released soon!
    See you live in Almeria Spain. When I was in the Merchant Marine we frequented a little port in the Bay of Gibraltar called Algeciras. Must have stopped there over 2 dozen times, over the years. Almeria is on the Mediterranean, correct? East of Malaga?
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  7. #31
    Registered User almeriastrings's Avatar
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    Default Re: Silverangel Econo "A"

    Yes. Almeria is directly on the Mediterranean coast. We are somewhat north of Almeria City in a much quieter little beach town.

    These are the tuners on mine. They are not quite Waverley's but they are plenty smooth enough:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Might look vaguely familiar and bring back a few memories for you!

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Gibson F5 'Harvey' Fern, Gibson F5 'Derrington' Fern
    Distressed Silverangel F 'Esmerelda' aka 'Maxx'
    Northfield Big Mon #127
    Ellis F5 Special #288
    '39 & '45 D-18's, 1950 D-28.

  8. #32
    Fatally Flawed Bill Kammerzell's Avatar
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    Default Re: Silverangel Econo "A"

    Quote Originally Posted by almeriastrings View Post
    Yes. Almeria is directly on the Mediterranean coast. We are somewhat north of Almeria City in a much quieter little beach town.

    These are the tuners on mine. They are not quite Waverley's but they are plenty smooth enough:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	S_A_neckb.jpg 
Views:	118 
Size:	200.8 KB 
ID:	153941

    Might look vaguely familiar and bring back a few memories for you!

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	coast_1 (1 of 1).jpg 
Views:	90 
Size:	54.6 KB 
ID:	153942
    Thanks for the pictures. I put Schaller's on mine.
    Ray Dearstone #009 D1A (1999)
    Skip Kelley #063 Offset Two Point (2017)
    Arches #9 A Style (2005)
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    Hohner and Seydel Harmonicas (various keys)

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  9. #33
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    Default Re: Silverangel Econo "A"

    When I got my Laura Ratcliff A and inquired after it Ken mentioned that since it had been built (in 2002) he had changed from a hand carved bridge and the stamped Gibson style tailpiece to Cuberland Acousitics bridges and Orrico tailpieces and he recommended I do so as well. I did replace the bridge, which impacted the tone a great deal. I left the tailpiece because I couldn't be bothered since it worked fine. Like you I eventually got some fret and neck work done and it now plays great. The tuners have always been pretty good however--they are Gotohs, not top of the line but they turn easily, hold tension with no slipping.
    Jason Anderson

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  10. #34
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    Default Re: Silverangel Econo "A"

    While I have not had an econo A, I have owned 2 SA A styles. The first dated 2011 and the second dated 2013 (re-topped in 2015-I bought after the re top). Both had the Gibson style tailpiece; I have no idea what tuners were on them, but both did their job and didn't slip unlike the tuners on a more expensive A I had from another builder. Both had the wonderful tone SAs are known for. I traded the 2013 back to Ken for one of the Fs he built for SPBMA; it arrived yesterday and it is awesome in all respects. Ken is also wonderful to do business with too-imho. Hope this helps someone with their decision......
    Thanks

    Several mandolins of varying quality-any one of which deserves a better player than I am.......

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    Default Re: Silverangel Econo "A"

    I have a 2009 model, and I really like it. It's matured into a really dry, woody sounding mando (with excellent bass, of course, as is Ken's signature). I traded for an MT recently that I also really like. The MT wins on fit/finish and is an excellent sounding mandolin, but I think I prefer the SA's tone, at least for now (the MT's still maturing). The SA has kept me from buying a bunch of mandolins over the years I've had it. I've played better mandos (at Gruhn's, Carter's, and Lowe Vintage), but they've all been substantially more expensive (i.e., 6 grand and up). I got mine used for $900 in 2011 or 2012, and it's easily the most bang for my instrument buck to date. I feel these represent an excellent value, even at his new prices...

    Just read the rest of the thread. My tuners work very well; smooth, and hold tune nicely. The tailpiece is very plain, but functional, and the bridge, fretwork, and nut on mine are well done.
    Chuck

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    Registered User Pjones3's Avatar
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    Default Re: Silverangel Econo "A"

    Quote Originally Posted by bbcee View Post
    I just bought a 2016 from a Cafe member, but it's been stuck in customs for two weeks - I'm hoping to have it in hand this week and join the happy campers!
    Hoping you do as well!!!

  13. #37

    Default Re: Silverangel Econo "A"

    Absolutely love my SA A. Has StewMac golden era tuners and an Allen tailpiece. It is a masterpiece of relicing. If you don't like that, I can understand. My bridge is SA and very well done.

    I'd have to pay him extra though, as I really love the Silverangel script head stock inlay. and that style head stock. As I've said before, I wouldn't trade my SA for an MT, but would love to have an MT along with it's brighter tone.
    Silverangel A
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    Default Re: Silverangel Econo "A"

    I originally traded for the MT thinking I'd move it along to help fund a step up to a MT2 or maybe a Kelly A style, but I like the variety of tones I have with these 2. I don't hesitate to recommend either, and the MT and I are bonding well. The MT isn't really brighter, but does have a more modern, focused tone. The SA definitely isn't going anywhere, and, honestly, both are better than my skill level deserves, and both inspiring in their own ways.
    Chuck

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    Default Re: Silverangel Econo "A"

    I also got one of the Econo models and have had it since October. I don't have anything bad to say about it, and I really like Ken as a builder and how smooth the whole process it. That said, there are a few setup related issues that had kept me from really bonding with it. It will need a new nut similar to Will's case, and I'll probably end up swapping in a CA bridge with different string spacing and intonation. I do like the sound of the redwood / X-brace top, as it gives out a really full tone with good pop. It's louder than my Pava and has a totally different voice. But I think in the end I just feel more connected to the Pava since I've had it longer.

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  18. #40
    Fatally Flawed Bill Kammerzell's Avatar
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    Default Re: Silverangel Econo "A"

    Quote Originally Posted by Clement Barrera-Ng View Post
    I also got one of the Econo models and have had it since October. I don't have anything bad to say about it, and I really like Ken as a builder and how smooth the whole process it. That said, there are a few setup related issues that had kept me from really bonding with it. It will need a new nut similar to Will's case, and I'll probably end up swapping in a CA bridge with different string spacing and intonation. I do like the sound of the redwood / X-brace top, as it gives out a really full tone with good pop. It's louder than my Pava and has a totally different voice. But I think in the end I just feel more connected to the Pava since I've had it longer.
    You may have a problem with the CA bridge. The top on my Econo has a very high arch. I have a spare CA 12" radius bridge at the house. Went to fit it. The top on the Econo has such a big belly, there really wasn't a way to fit the bridge base properly on this Econo. Called Steve Smith, and was told, he'd had a guy bring in his Silverangel so he could special fit a bridge for him because of the big belly. That was an F I believe. Might be the same guy, but someone who posts here brought his Silverangel to Steve Smith for a new bridge.
    I tried to get Ken to send me a spare blank saddle for mine, but he said it was too much trouble for him. He makes every bridge separate. He told me to fix it myself as it was easy. So I sanded the top and re-slotted it, keeping with the 12" radius. I hope your situation is different, but that was my experience.
    My "bonding" experience with the Silverangel is exactly what has made it a very expendable piece in my mandolin collection. Just too much work out of the case, to get it set up and playable.
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  20. #41
    Fatally Flawed Bill Kammerzell's Avatar
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    Default Re: Silverangel Econo "A"

    Quote Originally Posted by Clement Barrera-Ng View Post
    I also got one of the Econo models and have had it since October. I don't have anything bad to say about it, and I really like Ken as a builder and how smooth the whole process it. That said, there are a few setup related issues that had kept me from really bonding with it. It will need a new nut similar to Will's case, and I'll probably end up swapping in a CA bridge with different string spacing and intonation. I do like the sound of the redwood / X-brace top, as it gives out a really full tone with good pop. It's louder than my Pava and has a totally different voice. But I think in the end I just feel more connected to the Pava since I've had it longer.
    All this discussion has made me decide to sell it again!
    Ray Dearstone #009 D1A (1999)
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  21. #42
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    Default Re: Silverangel Econo "A"

    Quote Originally Posted by Clement Barrera-Ng View Post
    I also got one of the Econo models and have had it since October. I don't have anything bad to say about it, and I really like Ken as a builder and how smooth the whole process it. That said, there are a few setup related issues that had kept me from really bonding with it. It will need a new nut similar to Will's case, and I'll probably end up swapping in a CA bridge with different string spacing and intonation. I do like the sound of the redwood / X-brace top, as it gives out a really full tone with good pop. It's louder than my Pava and has a totally different voice. But I think in the end I just feel more connected to the Pava since I've had it longer.
    If that nut, was slotted too close to the edge at the lower E string, like mine was, you can get a decent repair shop to replace it and slot it for under 100 dollars. Probably closer to 75. On the bridge saddle, you can lightly sand down the existing notches (if it was slotted too wide, like mine) and re-slot it. Just follow the contour of a 12" radius bridge saddle, and use the slotting on your Pava as a template. Hope this helps.
    Ray Dearstone #009 D1A (1999)
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    Default Re: Silverangel Econo "A"

    Quote Originally Posted by Br1ck View Post
    Absolutely love my SA A. Has StewMac golden era tuners and an Allen tailpiece. It is a masterpiece of relicing. If you don't like that, I can understand. My bridge is SA and very well done.

    I'd have to pay him extra though, as I really love the Silverangel script head stock inlay. and that style head stock. As I've said before, I wouldn't trade my SA for an MT, but would love to have an MT along with it's brighter tone.
    I was fine with the relic "look". That was great. I love the way the distressed look turned out. It was the quality and operation of the tuners that I didn't like. They kept binding up, and just didn't work right. The tailpiece was bent over touching the top of the mandolin. In fact when I brought up the tuners with Ken, he said they weren't the best, and sometimes they worked, sometimes they didn't. So I changed them out for Schallers. Those work great. I got the one of the last, if not the last Econo of the batch. So who knows?
    Ray Dearstone #009 D1A (1999)
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    Default Re: Silverangel Econo "A"

    Quote Originally Posted by Bogle View Post
    Seeing that Ken is beginning a new series of A's this year, how are you fortunate owners of the 2016's out there liking yours?
    Just looked at the current price. $1750.00. There is a lot out there for $1750.00. There is a Northfield M (their Michigan Made A model) for $1725.00 plus shipping at the Café Classifieds right now. Has an upgraded case. The owner is in Green Cove Springs Florida about say 70 miles from Ormond Beach. You could drive up and play it.

    http://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/106336#106336

    I was that close and had the money I would not hesitate. Fit, finish, playability, tone, sound, not to mentions setup, would all be there. That Northfield hands down for my money.
    Ray Dearstone #009 D1A (1999)
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    Expert on my own opinion Bogle's Avatar
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    Default Re: Silverangel Econo "A"

    Thanks Bill, and I did see the listing on that Northfield when it was posted. While I did not have a great bond with my first Silverangel that came to me in a trade due to the neck profile (although it sounded great), the next one came in with no issues, having tons of character, tone, and that very appealing dark bass "thunk" for days!

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  27. #46
    Donnie Stevens
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    Default Re: Silverangel Econo "A"

    Some of you may know that I've posted on behalf of Ken's mandolins quite a bit. There is a reason for this. I have played Ken's mandolins since the late 90's. I've had a great deal of mandolins in my hands from many builders, some I've liked, loved and some not so much. In any case, I haven't found anything that would cause me to lay my Silverangels aside and say so long. I have owned several, not because any have been bad, but more because I just really enjoy playing them so much. I like to break them in and experience the "opening up". So, in response to some of the posts here on the thread, I have certainly had my share of new builds from Ken. Not once have I ever known Ken to be unfair in his policies, quality or prices. I currently have two F models built by Ken, one being a Redwood and the other a spruce. My spruce is probably the best playing mandolin I've ever had in my hands. It plays like butter and maintains plenty of power and tone with no buzzing on the frets. Now, with that being said...have they always been perfectly set up to my taste upon purchase, no. Ken is a wonderful builder, I challenge you to find another mandolin that sounds like Ken's. Not saying they're the end all, but for my taste the tone is a perfect blend of lows to highs. I've played others I like, but the price range is usually more than double that of Ken's. When it comes to set up, seems to me that preference and taste comes in to play and that goes with any instrument from any builder. I automatically take any mandolin that I play to my set up man, Johnny Rushing. He knows what I like in a set up and can do what I need without me even having to tell him. I understand and appreciate the craft and skill that goes into building a mandolin, but I also value a set up. If I have an instrument that's worth spending money to acquire, then I'm willing and insistent on giving it a proper set up. I know when I take mine for set up, he does it right while I'm there. As far as builders go, they may not always be the best set up guys. I've played several great mandolins by independent builders that would be even better with a good set up. I guess my point is, I don't expect setups from builders to always be spot on. I use set up guys for that. I don't even like all set up guys work, but when I find one I like, I use them on everything. If I was ever in the position to own a $20K mandolin, Johnny Rushing would be setting is up for me. As far as tuners go, blame the manufacturer. I'd venture to say we've all had our share of woes with tuners, "Had a set of (insert brand) on another mandolin and had no problems, but this set won't tune and the gears are tight and hard to turn." I know this, I've been enjoying Ken's mandolins for a very long time and look forward to enjoying them right on for years to come.
    Donnie Stevens

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    Default Re: Silverangel Econo "A"

    Quote Originally Posted by eastKYmando View Post
    Some of you may know that I've posted on behalf of Ken's mandolins quite a bit. There is a reason for this. I have played Ken's mandolins since the late 90's. I've had a great deal of mandolins in my hands from many builders, some I've liked, loved and some not so much. In any case, I haven't found anything that would cause me to lay my Silverangels aside and say so long. I have owned several, not because any have been bad, but more because I just really enjoy playing them so much. I like to break them in and experience the "opening up". So, in response to some of the posts here on the thread, I have certainly had my share of new builds from Ken. Not once have I ever known Ken to be unfair in his policies, quality or prices. I currently have two F models built by Ken, one being a Redwood and the other a spruce. My spruce is probably the best playing mandolin I've ever had in my hands. It plays like butter and maintains plenty of power and tone with no buzzing on the frets. Now, with that being said...have they always been perfectly set up to my taste upon purchase, no. Ken is a wonderful builder, I challenge you to find another mandolin that sounds like Ken's. Not saying they're the end all, but for my taste the tone is a perfect blend of lows to highs. I've played others I like, but the price range is usually more than double that of Ken's. When it comes to set up, seems to me that preference and taste comes in to play and that goes with any instrument from any builder. I automatically take any mandolin that I play to my set up man, Johnny Rushing. He knows what I like in a set up and can do what I need without me even having to tell him. I understand and appreciate the craft and skill that goes into building a mandolin, but I also value a set up. If I have an instrument that's worth spending money to acquire, then I'm willing and insistent on giving it a proper set up. I know when I take mine for set up, he does it right while I'm there. As far as builders go, they may not always be the best set up guys. I've played several great mandolins by independent builders that would be even better with a good set up. I guess my point is, I don't expect setups from builders to always be spot on. I use set up guys for that. I don't even like all set up guys work, but when I find one I like, I use them on everything. If I was ever in the position to own a $20K mandolin, Johnny Rushing would be setting is up for me. As far as tuners go, blame the manufacturer. I'd venture to say we've all had our share of woes with tuners, "Had a set of (insert brand) on another mandolin and had no problems, but this set won't tune and the gears are tight and hard to turn." I know this, I've been enjoying Ken's mandolins for a very long time and look forward to enjoying them right on for years to come.
    I couldn't agree more with Donnie's comments. All the Silverangel's I've owned have been fabulous sounding mandolins, easy to play, and beautiful in a holistic fashion. Hold one, play it, and you'll feel Ken's passion for his craft. They may not be your cup of tea, but a better sounding mandolin at the price point you'll not find anywhere. I keep looking for the 'real deal', like many of you, but while I'm looking, I'm playing my Silverangel.

  30. #48
    Fatally Flawed Bill Kammerzell's Avatar
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    Default Re: Silverangel Econo "A"

    Quote Originally Posted by Pjones3 View Post
    I couldn't agree more with Donnie's comments. All the Silverangel's I've owned have been fabulous sounding mandolins, easy to play, and beautiful in a holistic fashion. Hold one, play it, and you'll feel Ken's passion for his craft. They may not be your cup of tea, but a better sounding mandolin at the price point you'll not find anywhere. I keep looking for the 'real deal', like many of you, but while I'm looking, I'm playing my Silverangel.
    Just was not my personal experience in fit, playability support and finish. I have purchased better, even much better at that price point. Just a personal observation, from someone that has purchased and owned about 30 mandolins in my lifetime, both US, import, small and medium sized builders. What I said was in response to someone that wanted a personal observation on the recent batch of Econo "A" mandolins built in 2016. I'm not the only one that posted misgivings. I also received a Private Message and a couple of emails from Econo "A" that would not post their experience because they feared backlash, because they didn't sing the praises of Ken Ratcliff.
    Hear is the Private Message without the poster's name.

    "I just read your post about the issues you had with your SA. I have the last one, #384 even though I was probably one of the first to inquire. Then never heard anything until I asked the status of them several months later, after he stopped taking orders. That is why I have the last one. I am only a beginner, but I have to agree you on the poor quality of work that was done setting the thing up. The nut and bridge slots are terrible along with the inconsistent string spacing. The bridge contact to the top is not very good at all. The "process" was non existent, an email telling me that he was getting started on it and another saying send the rest of the money, then another telling me it getting ready to ship. I do think with a better set up it will be ok.
    Thanks," (Anonymous).

    This was also my experience and I don't understand why.
    Ray Dearstone #009 D1A (1999)
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  32. #49
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    Default Re: Silverangel Econo "A"

    Quote Originally Posted by eastKYmando View Post
    Some of you may know that I've posted on behalf of Ken's mandolins quite a bit. There is a reason for this. I have played Ken's mandolins since the late 90's.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pjones3 View Post
    I couldn't agree more with Donnie's comments. All the Silverangel's I've owned have been fabulous sounding mandolins, easy to play, and beautiful in a holistic fashion.
    I have been a fan of your writings and all your videos Donnie and your enthusiastic endorsement of Ken's work is in part one of the reason I decided to get one. I still think Ken's mandolins have a really good sound, and can be made to play as easily as a Collings or a Pava. But I think Bill's point as well as my own, is that people should be aware that there will be some set up work involved once the mandolin is completed, and in some cases, much more than one expects. There are some trade-offs when doing an Econo model, and those trade-offs may be perfectly fine for some but may not be for others. That is all.

    I will just close by saying that I really appreciate Bill's feedback as I know it's not easy to "stray from the pack" so to speak. I think this will be the last post I'd make on the subject as I don't want the thread to get locked down. If anyone is interested in my feedback you know how to reach me.

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  34. #50
    Fatally Flawed Bill Kammerzell's Avatar
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    Default Re: Silverangel Econo "A"

    Quote Originally Posted by Clement Barrera-Ng View Post
    I have been a fan of your writings and all your videos Donnie and your enthusiastic endorsement of Ken's work is in part one of the reason I decided to get one. I still think Ken's mandolins have a really good sound, and can be made to play as easily as a Collings or a Pava. But I think Bill's point as well as my own, is that people should be aware that there will be some set up work involved once the mandolin is completed, and in some cases, much more than one expects. There are some trade-offs when doing an Econo model, and those trade-offs may be perfectly fine for some but may not be for others. That is all.

    I will just close by saying that I really appreciate Bill's feedback as I know it's not easy to "stray from the pack" so to speak. I think this will be the last post I'd make on the subject as I don't want the thread to get locked down. If anyone is interested in my feedback you know how to reach me.
    I will follow suit Clement and leave this alone.
    Ray Dearstone #009 D1A (1999)
    Skip Kelley #063 Offset Two Point (2017)
    Arches #9 A Style (2005)
    Bourgeois M5A (2022)
    Hohner and Seydel Harmonicas (various keys)

    "Heck, Jimmy Martin don't even believe in Santy Claus!"

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