Playing a Zouk

[red7flag]

I wish to apologize in advance. My ingorance of the Zouk is profound. Just to limit confusion, let's just focus on the Irish Zouk, tuned CFAD. I have never attempted to play one or even held one in my hands. What little I know, or think I know, is that the lower two courses tune in octaves with the top courses parallel. How would you approach playing? Do you play with a plectrum or finger pick? Are there different styles of play? Is it mostly a solo instrument or one played in group? As I said, I know close to nothing. Thanks in advance.

[DavidKOS]

I wish to apologize in advance. My ingorance of the Zouk is profound. Just to limit confusion, let's just focus on the Irish Zouk, tuned CFAD.

First, I can't think of anyone that tunes the Irish version of the Bouzouki to CFAD.

CFAD is the tuning of the Greek tetrakordo (the trikordo is DAD) 4 course bouzouki, which I love playing.

The 4 course Irish version (really a cittern with the flat back design, not a bouzouki at all really) is usually tuned GDAD or GDAE

The Greek version has octave pairs on the lowest 2 courses, but many Irish version are unison strung on all strings.

THe Greek version is always played with a pick, the Irish one usually so but a few guys fingerpick.

The Greek version is a lead instrument in various ensembles and is a solo instrument for taksimi and such. The Irish one is usually used to supply bass runs and chords to ensembles, but is sometimes played solo as a lead instrument.

The Greek and irish style are quite different!



with my Sakis Greek tetrakordo.

[Lord of the Badgers]

Hi there, I always thought CFAD was Greek tuning; I use GDAD. But I'm not geeky enough to know different/history.

Unison or octave strings? You've got two GOMs so why not at least try octave pairs for a bit, but bear in mind, that's best for chord work. Though that said I flat pick in octaves, I'm just not much of a tune player. There's also a debate on which way up the high octave appears - at the top, 12 string style (my pref), or under (Sarah Jarosz does that on her GOM).

Of course, longer scale, more stretchy fingers, more pinky use... I guess that's maybe why GDAD is a thing.

I play plectrum (medium-heavy weight) but fingerpicking can work great too.

I say this, to hell with convention and just enjoy exploring the different tonality to your Bussman

- - - Updated - - -

Crossed in the post that's me confirmed then. Phew, I was listening

[red7flag]

Well, my ignorance is confirmed. I did not even ask the question correctly. I guess I better start with Irish, GDAD. Thanks for clarifying. I guess I always thought of the Zouk as playing the the melody on the top two strings with the lower two acting as a drone. That assumption, appears way off base.

[DavidKOS]

I guess I always thought of the Zouk as playing the the melody on the top two strings with the lower two acting as a drone. .

If you tune the Irish Bouzouki to GDGD, ADAD, GCGC, etc. - even GDAD to a good degree - you can play melody and use other strings as drones.

[zoukboy]

The 4 course Irish version (really a cittern with the flat back design, not a bouzouki at all really) is usually tuned GDAD or GDAE

One could argue about whether the Irish bouzouki is a "real" bouzouki or not (I will leave that to the pedants), but it definitely is not a "cittern." The history of how that term has encroached on the tradition of calling the Irish instrument a "bouzouki" is pretty interesting in and of itself. People who object to the use of the term "Irish bouzouki" are usually from one of two camps, either the are Greeks (or of Greek heritage), in which case they may have a legitimate beef with "their" instrument being appropriated by the Irish, or they are non-Irish who prefer to try and separate the instrument from its associations with Irish music and its Greek lineage. There are several possible explanations for this, but identity politics is one. I object to calling the Irish bouzouki a "cittern" because it is technically false, but also because it does not honor the fact that it was conceived of by Irish musicians who had played Greek bouzoukis first.

[DavidKOS]

The history of how that term has encroached on the tradition of calling the Irish instrument a "bouzouki" is pretty interesting in and of itself. People who object to the use of the term "Irish bouzouki" are usually from one of two camps, either the are Greeks (or of Greek heritage),...

I object to calling the Irish bouzouki a "cittern" because it is technically false, but also because it does not honor the fact that it was conceived of by Irish musicians who had played Greek bouzoukis first.

Well you make a good point.

First, I'm of Sicilian ancestry, which according to my Greek friends "used to be Greek" ! Plus, in the same way I poke fun at the archtop mandolin and support the bowlback, I also poke fun at the Irish "bouzouki" in a reverse popularity thing I find amusing. I do not play Irish trad, but I do play Greek music.

Yes the Irish guys used real Greek instruments first, and then developed the twangy treble Middle Eastern lead instrument of Greece into a much more deep, robust, bottom-end instrument that I loved when I first heard the likes of Dónal Lunny and such playing it.

I suppose I use the term "cittern" because I worked for years at a firm that sold Sobell instruments and that's what he calls the 5 course models.

Indeed it is not a Renaissance cittern! Those are re-entrant tuned among other things.

Frankly I wish the term "blarge" would have caught on.

"The name, Blarge, was suggested by Seamus Heaney. There’s a few clips of it here from the Planxty After the Break era."

" Then Stefan Sobell suggested calling a 5-course ( 10-string ) mandola-sized instrument a cittern, using this name from instruments of 3 or more centuries back. Then you had the Irish bouzouki, tuned an octave below mandolin, with a scale double the length of a mandolin, and often with the bottom two courses strung in octaves like the Greek bouzouki.
Finally you had the blarge, a bouzouki with an over-large body for extra resonance, perhaps with 5 courses of strings like the modern cittern."

https://thesession.org/discussions/35275

http://www.ceolas.org/instruments/cittern.html

Also, most Irish bouzoukis could be considered a type of octave mandolin, too.

I guess I really would like the word "bouzouki" to ONLY mean the Greek instrument, and that a new, non-bouzouki standard term for the Irish instrument was used.

But that also may be because I wish that instead of worldwide popularity of Irish sessions, you could go almost anywhere and find a Greek session!

[Lord of the Badgers]

I think we can all act unsurprised that the term blarge isn't used much!!

[Eddie Sheehy]

I had a 10-string Foley with BLARZ on the label... a monster, 17" across...

[Pete Braccio]

When you're playing it, you get to call it what ever you like.

[Eddie Sheehy]

... but it's preferable to use the term Cittern or Octave mandolin at Airport Security...

[red7flag]

Where does the term blarge come from, please?

[Eddie Sheehy]

I have heard Donal Lunney(Blarge) and Jimmy Crowley (Dordan) refer to Joe Foley oversize bouzoukis with these names but mine was the only large bouzouki I've seen with a Blarz on the label. The B stands for Bloody...

[Jacob]

Where does the term blarge come from, please?

IIRC, from B(ouzouki) Large

[Eddie Sheehy]

IIRC, from B(ouzouki) Large

No, it really is a Bloody large bouzouki...

[zoukboy]

I guess I really would like the word "bouzouki" to ONLY mean the Greek instrument, and that a new, non-bouzouki standard term for the Irish instrument was used.

I hear you, but unfortunately I don't think we get to choose. ;-) FWIW, Stefan Sobell, who coined the term "cittern" for his mandoid instruments only used it for his shorter scale designs regardless of whether they were 4 or 5 course. The term has evolved to mean a 5 course instrument exclusively.

But that also may be because I wish that instead of worldwide popularity of Irish sessions, you could go almost anywhere and find a Greek session!

Now that would be great, wouldn't it?

[Lord of the Badgers]

Long scale Cittern will do me... Blarge just sounds like some form of vomiting problem

[DavidKOS]

Obviously such a name won't catch on with the public at large.

(outnumbered by the non-Greek bouzouki players these days)

[red7flag]

I read an article by Robin Bolluck http://www.robinbullock.com/article02.htm describing the difficulty with the naming of the mandolin family instruments. To get a feel I have been listening to Planxty. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqZ_neREj9A Fun stuff. I am really intrigued by all the options. The 10 string Cittern or Mandolinola or whatever is most interesting to me at the moment, but this too may change.

[Nick Gellie]

The Irish bouzouki is used to accompany Irish or Celtic music (i.e. Asturian music) and Greek bouzouki for Greek music. You can use either interchangeably in both music genres. One came from the other and so what. I have been reading Graham McDonald's book again 'The Mandolin a history'. There are so many flat back instruments in South America, Portugal, and Germany called laud, banduria, waldzither, etc. There was a need for a new name so Irish bouzouki has stuck like it or not. Joe Foley who has been making them for years calls them that and that is what his Irish customers call them. I am happy to own one and call it such.

[DavidKOS]

The Irish bouzouki is used to accompany Irish or Celtic music (i.e. Asturian music) and Greek bouzouki for Greek music. You can use either interchangeably in both music genres. .

I've never seen an Irish bouzouki used in Greek bands. Tuning and tone color are not the same.

[Graham McDonald]

10 or 12 years ago a wonderful Greek rembetika group from Melbourne called Rembetiki were booked to perform at our National Folk Festival here in Canberra. Their lead bouzouki player's bouzouki got trashed by the airline with the head broken off. I had one of my Irish bouzoukis available and lent it to him for the festival. His instrument was a three course bouzouki which he tuned DAd and he had little difficulty in using my four instrument tuned GDAd, just ignoring the bottom course. Of course he made lots of jokes about using a flatbacked Irish bouzouki over the weekend. There was no cultural preciousness

I've never seen an Irish bouzouki used in Greek bands. Tuning and tone color are not the same.

[DavidKOS]

10 or 12 years ago a wonderful Greek rembetika group from Melbourne called Rembetiki were booked to perform at our National Folk Festival here in Canberra. Their lead bouzouki player's bouzouki got trashed by the airline with the head broken off. I had one of my Irish bouzoukis available and lent it to him for the festival. His instrument was a three course bouzouki which he tuned DAd and he had little difficulty in using my four instrument tuned GDAd, just ignoring the bottom course. Of course he made lots of jokes about using a flatbacked Irish bouzouki over the weekend. There was no cultural preciousness

Thanks for the story! and for helping out

[Colin Lindsay]

I've never seen an Irish bouzouki used in Greek bands. Tuning and tone color are not the same.

Ah then, you haven't travelled widely enough .... Peloponnese, 2014.
Re Nick: the Irish bouzouki (or flat-back, or European bouzouki) accompanies all sorts of music - Greek, Bulgarian, English, Scottish... even O'Carolan harp tunes or current pop music; it all depends on who plays it. It is also known to be tuned in GDAE, although some musicians tune it GDAD.
Can I remove my tongue from my cheek now?

[DavidKOS]

Ah then, you haven't travelled widely enough .... Peloponnese, 2014.
Re Nick: the Irish bouzouki (or flat-back, or European bouzouki) accompanies all sorts of music - Greek, Bulgarian, English, Scottish... even O'Carolan harp tunes or current pop music; it all depends on who plays it.]

Well I am sure there are exceptions as there are to any rule - but you must admit that it is rare for ethnic Greeks to use anything other than a Greek style bouzouki.

Sorry guys - I've seen the growth of the Irish bouzouki from the mid 1970's and am amazed that it has overshadowed the Greek version worldwide.

I guess it's due to the popularity of Celtic music.