Vinaccia Family Makers

[Jim Garber]

I have been trying to make sense of the multiple family members in the Vinaccia family. This is in part to educate myself as to which are the more desirable instruments.

There is a nice history on the Calace site but no similar one for the Vinaccias.

Any clues or elucidations from the professors on this board?

BTW I came across this Italian luthier who has quite a few interesting instruments pictured but few for sale.

[vkioulaphides]

Let us hope Alex chimes in; my knowledge is sketchy at best. Naturally, while the Calace firm is still in business (yoo-hoo, Raffaele, remember ME?) and can accordingly document its activities since its inception to the present, the Vinaccia family is alas, alas, no more in mando-lutherie.

To make things worse (especially for you, web-savants), vinaccia in Italian is the matter left over after the compression of grapes for vinification, skins, seeds, occasional stems and all; commonly subclassified into vinaccia dolce, i.e. UNfermented, with residual sugar intact, and the other, spicier stuff used to inject a bit of tang into pastries/deserts (the latter after filtration, after it has fermented in and with the liquid part for stain/tannins, etc.)

So, hope for not too much mando-specific from your web-searches...

[Eugene]

There's a decent sketch scattered through Sparks's The Classical Mandolin. #I'm sure Alex can elaborate beyond the text.

[Jim Garber]

I have been trying to get that Sparks books for a few years now. It is very scarce. Supposedly it will be reprinted soon. I emailed Oxford but heard nothing. I will call.

In the meantime, I would like to establish some sort of chronology of the family. Here is what I have from various sources. These are dates of actual instruments or, in the case of Henley, working years:

Baines:
Antonio 1772, 1773,
Gaetano 1744

Timmerman:
Pasquale 1891
Giuseppe 1895
Vinaccia family, 1770
antonio 1780, 1779

Henley (working years):
Antonio(1): 1754-1781
Antonio(2) (son of Gennaro) 1763-1798
Gaetano: 1779-1831
Gennaro (son of Antonio): 1755-1778
Giovanni (son of Gennaro): 1762-1777
Mariano (son of Antonio1): 1790-1806
Nicola: 1745-1780
Vincenzo (son of Gennaro): 1769-1795

Other instruments I have seen on line:
Gennaro and Rubino 1890
Pasquale 1882
Giuseppe 1901
Fratelli Vinaccia 1905, 1918, 1904, 1928 (who signed it?)


What happens after that? Who was the last of the Vinaccias? When did the company fold and why? Tune in next week...

Jim

[vkioulaphides]

The one I almost caught, as per this thread:
http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin....t=13383
was of the Fratelli Vinaccia, i.e. Achille and Gennaro. IF, that is, it was authentic— never got close to it #

As to the [QUOTE]"When did the company fold and why?", I'm sure that it had to do with the general calamities that befell Italy between the two World Wars. It's not for nothing that around that time Italians (especially southerners and Sicilians) fled to the U.S. in droves, that organized crime sprouted everywhere in cancerous vehemence, or that a naturally warm, affable people degenerated to fascism.

[Jim Garber]

Victor:
Do you have the ebay link for that Vinaccia mandolin?

I must confess my collector mentality is down to collecting jpegs of things I cannot buy.

Jim

[vkioulaphides]

I'm afraid not, Jim. And your "surrogate addiction" to collecting jpegs is certainly less costly than The Real Thing

So, nope: German eBay, weeks ago... Similar to the unadorned piece on Frignani's site, or the (rosewood in this case, not maple) instrument perpetually on sale by Liuteria Lodi. (You have the URL, don't you?) Also "Fratelli", some $2,500 I think...

But you get the idea: plain but elegant, maple bowl, solid (by the jpeg-looks of it, of course), just what I like. I would have gloated to high heaven had I acquired that eBay.de piece at the price where it hovered until the last minute, i.e. 50-some euro, +/- $100 with the shipping. But I guess it was not meant to be...

[Bob A]

I'm sitting here with Sparks on my lap. (Boy howdy, SUCH a straight line).

His index provides the following:

Vinaccia, Achille (1836-1920)
Federico (1839-1884)
Gaetano (1759-after 1831)
Gaetano (c1900) - Described as the most significant luthier of the period (turn of the century Virtuoso Era in Italy). It was also mentioned that the family firm had split into two or more competing businesses by the turn of the cent).
Gennaro (b. 1832)
Giuseppe (c.1900)
Pasquale (1806-c1885)

Sparks quotes R. Harrison, who visited the Vinaccia atelier in the 1880s, chock full of the Signori Vinaccia, workmen and allievi, some five-and-twenty in number, increasing in the busy season. (Begs the question of just when the busy season for mandolin production might be).

A tough book, Sparks. Found one for $150 on abebooks; emailed the dealer (in San Francisco) for a sane price, was blown off. Apparently they sold it for that; mine came up in a used bookstore for $22 a few months later. Never seen another, though I look in a desultory fashion now and then. If I ever do turn one up, I'll email you directly, Jim.

[Arto]

There´s one copy of Sparks`Classical Mandolin available at www.abebooks.com for $109. There´s no description of the book or its condition.

greetings, Arto

PS: I suppose it was me who bought that Californian $150 copy... I thought the price was outrageous, too, but fell for the offer after seeing the same book advertised for "a cheap price" of around $ 350 at Amazon...

[Jim Garber]

Strange doings around this book:

I had done a search on Amazon and until recently it said that it was to be published in January 2004. Now they just say out of print.

It looks like if I want a hardbound, theoretically I can order it directly from Oxford U Press. I have a feeling that it is out of stock there also. I suppose I could get it from Sweden if I was really needing in immediately.

Oxford says on their site that it will be published in paper this year:
http://www.us.oup.com/us....5173376

I will call them today to find out if it will actually be out one day. I think I can wait for the paper at $29.95 vs the hardbound over $100.

The frustrating part is that I can't even find it in a library in order to read it. I have never even seen a copy. Strange.

Jim

[btrott]

The frustrating part is that I can't even find it in a library in order to read it.

Jim,

Here is a list of libraries in NY and neighboring locales that own Spark's The Classical Mandolin. You can ignore the cryptic three-letter codes at the end of each line. Your local public library should be able to get a copy for you through interlibrary loan. Good luck,

Barry

New York

CITY COL, CUNY ZXC
COLUMBIA UNIV ZCU
CORNELL UNIV COO
EASTMAN SCH OF MUSIC RES
JUILLIARD SCH, THE ZJS
NEW YORK PUB LIBR RES LIBR NYP
NEW YORK UNIV ZYU
QUEENS BOROUGH PUB LIBR ZQP
QUEENS COL XQM
STATE UNIV OF NEW YORK, BINGHAMTON LIBR BNG
SUNY AT BUFFALO BUF
SUNY AT STONY BROOK YSM
SYRACUSE UNIV SYB
VASSAR COL VXW

Connecticut

UNIV OF CONNECTICUT UCW
WESLEYAN UNIV WLU
YALE UNIV LIBR

New Jersey

PRINCETON UNIV PUL
ROWAN UNIV NJG
RUTGERS UNIV NJR

[Jim Garber]

Thanks, Barry. Actually a good friend is a librarian at Vassar, so I could ask her.

Of course, a book of such importance eventually will need to reside in my library.

Jim

[Jim Garber]

I just spoke to Oxford-US and they have no clue as to when the papoer edition will be published, but they say this year on their site.

They also list the hardbound edition at $115 but the woman I spoke to said that that edition is something you have to order by the copy from the UK so it might be one of those reprint editions, photocopied and bound.

Jim

[vkioulaphides]

Well, Jim, if/when you catch wind that the paperback edition DID in fact come out, please let us all know. I suspect some (many?) of us might be interested. I looked it up myself, too, but felt a bit silly to go ahead and put in an order with no foreseeable E.T.A. I find doing business that way a bit, err... disconcerting.

Oh, the Lodi URL is: http://liuterialodi.interfree.it/
Their Vinaccia, as well as all their 6 mandolins, have been languishing for eons; prices are STILL quoted in Italian liras (what would be the current exchange-rate for an obsolete currency?)...

Oé, Si'or Lodi, cosa c'è che fare?

[Jim Garber]

I don't think Oxford UP is taking orders yet. The person I spoke with said there is no date mentioned on her computer about when this edition will actually come out.

As far as Lodi, I imagine that many of those Vinaccias are long gone to Japan and that the Web site has not been updated in awhile, hence the prices in Lira. Has anyone contacted them about those mandolins?

Jim

[vkioulaphides]

Not I, Jim.

To put it in finance-textbook-speak, "[financial] success is often tantamount to exploiting beneficial inefficiencies inherent in the market". Sellers unaware of the value of their wares, buyers unaware of the availability of such underpriced wares, language barriers, under-publicity of a sale, etc. (i.e. all the factors that kept that Vinaccia at 50 euro for a week) are such inefficiencies.

I don' t buy at the peak, nor from the savvy dealer— can't afford to.

[Bob A]

I wouldn't count on reprints in any reasonable time frame. Kent State U published a book that is in such demand that copies fetch over $300 immediately when one becomes available, which you would think was a darn solid indicator of demand. Despite pleadings etc to reprint, nothing ever happens, though they say they're considering the issue. So much for university publications.

Meanwhile, back to the bookstalls. If I find a copy, I'll let you know.

[Marc]

I picked up this book a couple of years ago, new and gathering dust on the shelves in Foyles London for 30 quid I think. It's a very interesting book and probably should be compulsory reading for the members of this list! I had no idea it was so hard to come by, but if I see another I'll buy it and offer it to the list.

I think RSW has been in touch with Paul Sparks and has his email. I wonder if Paul has any surplus copies himself that he would sell?

Marc

www.belmando.com

[Jim Garber]

Another interesting Vinaccia bites the eBay dust!

It was at $150 for sometime. Hit $585 this evening and then in a flurry of sniping ended up at $1706.

This is a rather plain one but prob a very nice instrument after some luthier magic. One of those lat 19th C Fratelli V's.

Jim

[vkioulaphides]

Well, it seems that yet another non-descript listing did not escape notice...

[Jim Garber]

I just saw a posting for a 1920 Vinaccia (Fratelli) mandola. The seller wants $5000 (little negotiation possible). I am not sure but it is probably a tenor mandola. I asked the seller for the scale length and he told me 3 octaves. It is a rather plain one but prob a good player.

It was restored in London by Marco Roccia in 1978, but it is hard to tell if it was completely refinished as well. Looks that way from the photo -- a little too shiny.

BTW I have no interest in this other than continuing the discussion about Vinaccias. If anyone wants to pursue this, I would be happy to give him/her the info.

From those who do own such instruments (are there any here?): are they good players as well and how do they compare to the other Italian "star" mandolins, Calace and Embergher and the like?

[vkioulaphides]

No Vinaccia vintner, are you, Jim? #

And a year-or-so ago, there was that smallish-scale mando(lon)cello by the Vinaccias, etc. I have as of yet not played one, but am attracted to their plain, down-to-earth appearance and the evident, fine craftsmanship. Who knows, some day...

*ouch!* Yes, Jim —possibly deceptive photography discounted— the gloss on the soundboard of that mandola spells r-e-v-a-r-n-i-s-h. The Vinaccias I have seen elsewhere had the discrete, "satin" coating on their fine tops, and little gloss on the bodies; French-polish, from the looks of it. This one... as I said: *ouch!*

I think part of the Vinaccia mystique comes from having "been there" from the very, very beginning of the instrument. (Well, you know what I mean, ignoring for now the enormous "Historical mandolins..." thread; I mean the instrument that ignorant paesani like myself would recognize as THE mandolin.) Beyond that, I must leave any tonal/qualitative discussion to those who have sipped from the Vinaccia's magic chalice.

[Bob A]

My first impression was "refin" as well, though it might be a zealous application of wax, highly buffed. Peghead looks vaguely Calace; little label set in at an angle doesn't speak well for the maker, or whoever might have stuck it in there. General lack of ornament speaks to low-end. The seller seems to have posted it in the cafe classifieds, without a price. (On closer reading, that's probably where Jim saw it). Did I see this one on ebay a while ago?

If I needed such a thing (and who among us doesn't?) I'd be hesitant about such a sale unless it came thru a dealer of some repute. There's too much chance of slip twixt the Tiber and the East River for my comfort. Anyway, my Vinaccia is supposedly in the last stages of re-assembly in a distant corner of Jersey City; possibly the De Meglio as well might be in my hands before another few seasons pass. Then I'll be in a position to judge whether I should have chased this one, whatever it may be.

The $1700 Vinaccia did not escape my attention; nor did the nasty crack in the bowl. I would think there'd be room for a dealer on this shore, who would undertake to provide a decent selection of bowlbacks in playable restored condition. If I had time, capital, luthiery skills, and the ability to hibernate between sales to save overhead, I'd do it myself. Thankfully, I lack all the above, and ambition as well. I can't tell you how much aggravation I've avoided by being the anthropoid incarnation of the three-toed sloth. But enough about me. (Yawns; stretches). I've been up three hours already, and the grandson is asleep on the floor by my feet. I believe I'll join him for a brief respite from the relentless pace of existence, so called.

[Jim Garber]

Man, I think the world is now catching onto what we have known for some time. I was crusing Lark Street Music and this Vinaccia (1892) just came in. A little too pearly for me and a little too pricey at $5500. Oh well...

Jim

[btrott]

It appears that there is a hard bound copy of The Classical Mandolin available from an English bookseller for $63. See details at http://www.biblio.com/details.php?dc...aid=bkfndr&t=1

Barry