Interesting crosspicking video

[bingoccc]

Bitraker just posted this over on AGF and I found it to really get to the heart of crosspicking. It's mostly on guitar but the video close up and slow motion views make it worth about 20 minutes. Carl Miner is the featured player and he does play some mando,

[Simon DS]

Thanks for that, I'm finding that learning vibrato is making a difference.

[EdSherry]

The producer acknowledges that his use of the term "cross picking" is not standard. He uses it to refer to an in-and-out "curved" motion of the pick. (Cf. 12:20 to 12:30.) He differentiates it from what he terms "pick slanting."

[Mark Gunter]

That vid is great; and leads to a great sight on guitar technique. Much obliged.

[Stevo75]

That's a really cool video and I love the camera footage that demonstrates what he's talking about. Sam Bush is definitely a "cross picker". He clears the entire set of strings on every up and down stroke when playing single note lines.

[billkilpatrick]

how many notes in any given phrase is too many?

[T.D.Nydn]

One of the best videos I've seen,,really excellent,an awlful lot to think about,I particularly like the Paul Gilbert mandolin lick..

[Jordan Ramsey]

[bingoccc]

Fair enough. He titled his video, I enjoyed it and wanted to share. I shouldn't have played along.

[Stevo75]

Yeah I'm not a fan of him creating yet another definition for cross picking - which was already in debate before this. Still a great video and the demonstration of the different techniques, whatever you want to call them, was really cool.

Clarification: by "him" I mean the person creating the video, not the OP

[Jordan Ramsey]

Fair enough. He titled his video, I enjoyed it and wanted to share. I shouldn't have played along.

Not a personal attack on you, please don't take it that way. This term has had a strange history of being totally bastardized, as this video proves. Really cool video, just not accurate in terms of the title. He doesn't even mention George Shuffler, the original guitar crosspicker (and Doc Watson contemporary). I, too, should not have played along. As you were.

[billhay4]

I agree that re-defining a term is a great way to introduce confusion into a topic. Crosspicking has had this done before.
That being said, this was a fascinating video of a picking technique. I had not thought of picking in such detail before and the camera work helped a great deal as did the slow down video. I would be interested in more discussion of how this is actually learned in real life, whether it is actually taught, exercises one can do to accomplish this method, and explanations of the details of other picking styles. I am also interested in how this method actually increases speed. To me, it seems like more motion, but perhaps it's just different motion that other styles. I also would like some elucidation on statements he made regarding how this method makes worrying about pick direction unnecessary, etc.
Bill

[Stevo75]

I also would like some elucidation on statements he made regarding how this method makes worrying about pick direction unnecessary, etc.

If you're using a technique like DDU or using a strong bias towards a picking slant, then you can find yourself in a situation when the next note you need to pick would break the pattern. For example, if you use a strong downward slant, you'll often play through the string and rest on the string above it (above it in pitch, not space). But if the next note you need to play is on that string you're resting on, then you're all messed up. You have to play it as a down stroke and then do something like a rest stroke or hammer on or pull off to get back on track. Or, if you're using DDU (one of the examples in the video), you may have to break out of that pattern if the next note you need to play does not fit in the pattern.

When using this "cross picking" technique, you're not following a pattern (like DDU) and you're not using a slant so you won't end up resting against the string above or below the one you just played, so you're free to access any string you want for the next note.

I do think it makes it harder to play really fast with this technique because you need to be more accurate than when you're using an angled attack and a rest stroke. But it opens up more possibilities to play across strings.

[bingoccc]

Here's Troy's website for those that want to dig in to his ideas more. http://troygrady.com/mechanics/

[hucklebilly]

I've watched a bunch of Troy Grady's stuff and I'm a big fan. I think what he's done is really exceptional. There is so much "wisdom" out there about what "correct" right hand technique is, but no one has systematically interviewed and filmed expert players and then analyzed the results closely.

[Mark Gunter]

I've watched a bunch of Troy Grady's stuff and I'm a big fan. I think what he's done is really exceptional. There is so much "wisdom" out there about what "correct" right hand technique is, but no one has systematically interviewed and filmed expert players and then analyzed the results closely.

What I take away from Troy's site are mostly two things: (1) Evidence that very good and very fast pickers approach right-hand techniques in very different ways, each develops his own particular style and solves any necessary issues in ways that may differ widely one from the other, and (2) a better understanding and knowledge of the mechanics involved, thanks to his terrific filming techniques and critical observations. It's all great stuff, not sure how it might help me improve, but great stuff!

[billhay4]

Steve,
When you are doing this, do you still follow the convention of playing quarter notes down and eighth notes and higher down/up? Or is that thrown out of the equation and some other deciding factor used (like which string you will pick next, or which beat of the measure you'll play next)? Or am I misunderstanding this entirely (well within the realm of possibility).
Also, when you refer to pick slant, are you referring to slanting the pick relative to a line perpendicular to the strings, or toward the front or back of the instrument?
Finally, I am a mandolin player so the factor of having to make two strings sound good at the same time is important. How does this affect pick orientation and the method Troy advocates?
Thanks,
Bill

[Stevo75]

Steve,
When you are doing this, do you still follow the convention of playing quarter notes down and eighth notes and higher down/up? Or is that thrown out of the equation and some other deciding factor used (like which string you will pick next, or which beat of the measure you'll play next)?

Not sure what you mean by "this". If you mean the cross picking technique that Troy describes in the video, then yes that would be used with alternate picking (the continual up/down of the right hand with the beat). But you can alternate pick with the up/down slant as well. And you could use any of those techniques with something other than alternate picking, although it would be sort of weird to use this cross picking technique with anything other than alternate picking, that would defeat the purpose. For those who do sweep picking or gypsy jazz style guitar, they would normally be using the downward slant (unless sweep picking from the high strings to low strings (in pitch) in which case you would use an upward slant).

Techniques like the DDU (down down up) obviously depart from the alternate picking idea.

Also, when you refer to pick slant, are you referring to slanting the pick relative to a line perpendicular to the strings, or toward the front or back of the instrument?

Relative to the plane of the strings. This is easy to visualize if you were continuously picking the G string with large strokes (G string on the mandolin). You would need to use an upward slant to avoid hitting the D string. Now go to the E string. Continuously pick up and down with large strokes. You have to use a downward slant otherwise you would be hitting the A string. But you can use this technique on any of the string. When you're doing it one of the middle strings, you would would follow through the string you're trying to hit and come to rest against the string above or below depending on whether or not you're using an upward or downward slant. This is a really useful technique because you don't have to be as accurate. With the "cross picking" technique described in this video, you are using more of an arc so that you hit the string you're trying to hit and miss the strings on either side. But I'm sure you do this all the time already without realizing it.

Finally, I am a mandolin player so the factor of having to make two strings sound good at the same time is important. How does this affect pick orientation and the method Troy advocates?

All of these methods result in good contact with the strings. Although it's easier to make stronger contact with the string set on the mandolin using one of the slanted approaches. I'm guessing most people use a combination of all these techniques all the time without realizing it (upward slant, downward slant, and cross picking - which would be better described as an arc).

[billhay4]

Very helpful comments, Steve. I appreciate your taking the time.
Bill

[Stevo75]

I think a lot of this stuff is academic, especially for bluegrass mandolin. On mandolin, unless you're doing something like Jesse McReynold's cross picking (which is totally different from the cross picking in this video), you stick with alternate picking. And because we don't have to do a lot of string changing on mandolin, you don't have to worry too much about how to skip around the strings. On guitar, especially electric guitar, there are way more styles of play and because a guitar has six strings and is tuned differently, you end up switching strings a lot more. So these techniques become much more useful for a guitar player who might be interested in bluegrass, jazz, gypsy jazz, and shredder guitar (heavy metal) each of which would make use of different right hand techniques. For example, in gypsy jazz, the "correct" way to pick is not alternate picking. Gypsy Jazz players are supposed to use as many down strokes as possible with a lot of sweep picking. It has nothing to do with the beat like alternate picking. Because it's so down stroke heavy, they would tend to favor the downward slant talked about in the video. After a down stroke they would follow through and come to rest on the next string. If they needed to hit that same string again, they would use an upstroke (or maybe even a down stroke again if they had enough time). If they needed to play the next string (which they just came to rest on) they would use another down stroke.

And as far as the slant vs. cross picking in the video, most of us probably use these different techniques all the time without noticing it. It's really just a subtle change in the angle of the wrist. When doing tremelo on the G string, we would naturally be using an up slant, when using tremelo on the E string, we would adopt a downward slant. When jumping around between strings, we would do something like the cross picking in the video. Whenever you play a string on a down stroke and the next note you need to play is an upstroke on the next string (higher in pitch), you would be using this cross picking technique - otherwise you would run into the next sting with your down stroke.

[Stevo75]

This video does a good job explaining all this (the first video about arpeggio picking)

http://troygrady.com/mechanics/steve-morse-interview/

[billkilpatrick]

technique is incredible but at what point does one become concerned for the whereabouts of the tune?

[Toni Schula]

how many notes in any given phrase is too many?

There are two approaches to this interesting question, I have to offer:

A) More than 20 notes per second would put the picking itself already in the range of sub-bass. (E.g. the biggest pipe of the great organ at Vienna Musikverrein produces 16 Hz.)

B) There should be at least some oscillations of the string between picking. So if you want to have 10 oscillations on the open G-string, again 20 notes per second is the limit.

To be earnest: of course it is a matter of musical taste. I really admire those who play fast and tastefully, as so many in this excellent video.

[Mark Gunter]

technique is incredible but at what point does one become concerned for the whereabouts of the tune?

I think one should be pretty much always concerned for the whereabouts of the tune. Also, agree that the technique of these guys is incredible.

[Stevo75]

technique is incredible but at what point does one become concerned for the whereabouts of the tune?

The two are not mutually exclusive.