Oricco tailpiece

[mandobassman]

I have posted many times in the past about cast tailpieces and the fact that I have never heard a difference in sound when using them. I have installed a couple of Allen tailpieces on two different mandolins and on those mandolins had never heard the slightest difference. I always had attributed the opinions of those who had claimed a difference to "wanting" to hear a difference.
So, today I installed a Orrico tailpiece that I bought from the Cafe Classifieds. I have always love the look of the Orrico and decided to get one when the chance came up. It looks beautiful but I didn't expect the difference in sound that occoured. The difference was actually startling. About a 15-20% increase in volume. Much stronger midrange clarity. I kept the same strings on so I know that wasn't the difference. I asked my wife, since I hear it in a different way than she does, if she could hear a difference and she said it was much louder. So I am now convinced that a tailpiece can indeed make a difference. And it sure looks good too. Also, much more comfortable on my arm when resting on it.

[Manfred Hacker]

Yes, it's nice, I have it too. Don't know about change in tone.
But string change has been a pain. Do you have a speciel trick for hooking the loops in quickly?

[mandobassman]

Yes. I bend the loop with a pencil or the shaft of a small screwdriver before hooking them on. Fortunately, I only change strings every 12 to 18 months.

[mandolinstew]

Makes my Tacoma sound great.



[/QUOTE]

[sblock]

...she said it was much louder. So I am now convinced that a tailpiece can indeed make a difference. And it sure looks good too. Also, much more comfortable on my arm when resting on it.

So, you write that you tend to rest your arm on your tailpiece?! Well, that would tend to have a very significant effect on the sound! Most of us avoid any physical contact with the tailpiece or the strings behind the bridge when we play. The greater mass of the tailpiece you installed, and its greater length, might act to minimize the acoustic damping that would otherwise be caused by direct contact with your arm in this area. And that would certainly make your mandolin sound louder. But it would not sound any louder, I'd contend, than if it just had a 'normal-style' tailpiece and you avoided all physical contact with it!

I am still dubious that a tailpiece exerts much of an effect on mandolin tone. Unless you come into regular contact with it while playing, that is.

[mandobassman]

I had always made the same claim about there being no difference in sound whan changing a tailpiece, but this one did make a significant difference. When I say I rest my arm on the tailpiece, it really barely touches it and does so with very little pressure at all. However, the playing position is the same with either tailpiece so the difference I experienced is real. I know the tone of this mandolin very well and the difference was very noticeable.

When I play, my forearm rests on the top edge of the mandolin right above the tailpiece but my arm just brushes along the edge of the tailpiece and the little curled out edge of a Gibson-style TP is very thin metal and would dig into the edge of my arm. This TP is thicker and nicely rounded and doesn't bother me at all.

[spufman]

So you're the one who beat me to that beautiful tailpiece! If there is a significant change in break angle over the bridge, I can see that volume would be affected.

[mandobassman]

The angle was too high and I had to bend it down a bit to get the strings to form a straight line from the end of the tailpiece to the bridge. I don't know how different it was from the original TP

[sblock]

I had always made the same claim about there being no difference in sound whan changing a tailpiece, but this one did make a significant difference. When I say I rest my arm on the tailpiece, it really barely touches it and does so with very little pressure at all. However, the playing position is the same with either tailpiece so the difference I experienced is real. I know the tone of this mandolin very well and the difference was very noticeable.

When I play, my forearm rests on the top edge of the mandolin right above the tailpiece but my arm just brushes along the edge of the tailpiece and the little curled out edge of a Gibson-style TP is very thin metal and would dig into the edge of my arm. This TP is thicker and nicely rounded and doesn't bother me at all.

I am in no way doubting your report that the Oricco tailpiece sounds louder than your Gibson-style tailpiece when you play. But I think you missed (or perhaps misinterpreted?) my point that it's the added MASS of the Oricco tailpiece that makes it more resistant to the damping effect that you generate by touching your arm to the tailpiece when you play. Yes, your playing position is more-or-less the same with both tailpieces, as you wrote, but that's not related to the explanation.

Also, you argue that you "barely touch" the tailpiece with "very little pressure at all." To be frank, I am quite dubious about that. First off, it doesn't take much pressure at all in that area to affect the volume through damping. And second, you remarked that the "Gibson-style TP is very thin metal and would dig into the edge of my arm." Well, if the pressure from your arm on the TP is enough to cause the metal cover to dig into your arm over time, it is certainly enough to cause significant damping! I think you may underestimate how much of an effect you're having on tone by touching the tailpiece.

I think that folks who, while playing, tend to touch the strings in the area between the bridge and the tailpiece, on the tailpiece itself, would be well advised to either (1) stop playing that way, or (2) get a tailpiece that's long and massive, like the Oricco, that minimizes any damping effects, or (3) get an armrest that holds your right arm in a position where it does not make contact with the tailpiece.

This advice is not very different from advising folks who tend to plant their pinkies on the top to consider using a fingerrest (pickguard), or from advising folks who tend to hold their instruments tightly against their bodies to consider buying a ToneGard. The more free that wooden surfaces are to vibrate, the louder they will sound (this is objective). And probably sound better, too (but that is subjective).

[mandobassman]

I have changed the tailpiece on 2 previous mandolins and never heard the slightest difference and have always doubted that the tailpiece made a difference in sound, so when I put this one on and the tone and volume changed, it surprised me. It was simply an observation. I wasn't looking to get into a critique of my playing technique.

[sblock]

Yikes. I am sorry if you took it as a critique of your playing technique! It really wasn't meant that way, believe me. There are plenty of truly awesome mandolinists who, for example, plant (post) their pinkies directly on the top (Adam Steffey comes immediately to mind, among others). There are others who touch an arm to the tailpiece (Jethro Burns was one, if I recall correctly: he did this to support his mandolin while standing rather than use a strap, in fact). These things can, and they DO, affect the volume -- and also the tone -- of the mandolin. And that is precisely why accessories like fingerrests (pickguards), ToneGards, and armrests exist! These things all allow us to use various playing postures (sometimes rather unorthodox postures, but who cares as long as they work, except for some classical snobs?! ) and yet keep from making direct contact with the vibrating parts of our mandolins. Some folks don't really need these accessories because they're irrelevant to their playing posture -- they don't post a pinky, or they don't touch the tailpiece, or they don't hug the mandolin to their body, and so on. But others do, and these things really work well for them. I have a ToneGard and and armrest on my mandolin, by the way, and I love both these things. They improve my playing volume, for sure, and also the tone, I'd argue.

I am merely suggesting that the very real difference in volume that you report with a longer, more massive tailpiece may well be attributable to its extra mass and length, which act to insulate the mandolin better against the fact that you tend to touch in this area when you play. That's all. It's simple physics, actually. It's NOT a critique of your playing technique.

And let's not forget that there are special armrests (Weber makes a version, and so does Doug Edwards at Hill Country Stringworks, and so does King Brown) that are made to extend over the base of the tailpiece, made specifically for folks who tend to touch the tailpiece when they play!

[mandobassman]

It's all good. No worries. I'm sure I was reading more into that than I needed to.

I've actually thought about getting a armrest for that very reason. I temporally tried a violin chin rest to see how that felt, but much like a finger rest, it threw off my playing by having my arm in a slightly different position. Plus, the violin rest is certainly not the ideal shape for your arm. I may still get one because I think it will help. I'll eventually get used to the position. But right now I'm very happy with the tonal change the tailpiece has provided. It was a great sounding mandolin to begin with, but now the tonal quality has gone up a notch.

[PH-Mando]

Wow! I like the look of that Oricco. I have a standard tailpiece on my F style and I'll bet it would look nice on my mandolin too.

[mtk]

Search the forum, I remember reading something about Ken Ratliff, the Silver Angel builder using the tailpiece because of its looks and sound improvement.

[mandobassman]

Yes, Ken uses them on his Silverangel mandolins quite often. That's where I first saw one.