Upgrading mandolin advice thread - the Chris Thile sound

[boombox]

Hi all, yes, it's another 'which mandolin for me' thread, but most such threads and advice tends to veer towards Brand A or Brand B as to which gives the better value etc. Useful, yes, but for me, it's a specific tone I'm after.

Anyway, as a first time poster, I guess a quick introduction is needed. Been playing guitar for 30-odd years (though not to any great level!) - 25 years mainly electric, then the last 5 solely acoustic. Being British, I've never really been exposed to bluegrass, other than the String Cheese Incident, of whom I've been a fan for 20+ years and Peter Rowan, whose work I first encountered with Old & In The Way probably 35 years ago. I am, of course, aware of the bluegrass guitarists like Rice, Blake and Douglas and recently, I have got more heavily into contemporaray folk-bluegrassy material by people like Alison Krauss, Aoife O'Donovan, Sarah Jarosz, etc. As for mandolin, I had a really basic Russian tourist grade mandolin on which I dabbled a few times in the past, just learning a few chords, but nothing more. Then, last Christmas, I got something more playable, a cheap Michael Kelly, which has served me well as a starter instrument.

Which brings me to my question. Through Sarah Jarosz and Aoife O'Donovan, and their wonderful I'm With Her project (who live are really something special), I came across Sara Watkins and through her, Nickel Creek. I bought their 'Reasons Why' best of and have now become obsessed with the tone of Chris Thile's mandolin, exemplified on that lovely opening run of 'A Lighthouse's Tale'. Looking at mandolins online, there are always references to woody, old-timey sounds, bark, bite, chop etc etc, but what sort of mandolin would I need to look at to get that precise sort of tone? I know Chris uses old Loar mandolins and lots of the sound is in the player's fingertips, and I'd have to try something myself, but any ideas would be appreciated. For a budget, let's say up to $1000/1200 US, which translates to £1000/1200 GBP - lower budget options would obviously also be considered, as would others just over this.

Thanks in advance

[chasray]

Welcome to the mandolin cafe!

You might get some good advice from
http://www.theacousticmusicco.co.uk/

He's on your side of the pond! And he carries some used instruments, too.

[Atlanta Mando Mike]

The mandolin Thile used to get that tone is a Dudenbostal F5. About $20,000 ish. It doesn't take a "Dude" to get that sparkly, delicate tone he got but at $1000 to $1200 US, you won't get there. At that price point, find a shop like http://www.theacousticmusicco.co.uk/ as mentioned above and play everything. Buy the best one in your price range that is there. Good mandolin brands in your range are are Kentucky's, Eastman's, Morris, Breedlove, etc... You have to go somewhere you can pla a bunch though... Have to

[Darren Bailey]

Hey Boombox, nice to see someone else in Wales here on the board.
As to your question, I have a theory which may not be popular around these parts...but here goes. Chris Thile is one of the all-time greats on mandolin (in my opinion) but don't expect to be able to reproduce that sound in your living room, no matter how much you practice. I've seen him live, and was blown away by his playing, but it didn't sound like the tone coming from the recordings. I personally think the recording techniques and twiddling in the studio produce stunning sounds but they're almost impossible to reproduce in a live or real setting. I've heard other great players live whose tone is very different to the their recordings. My advice would be to simply try as many instruments as you can and find one whose tone you love (for now).
I personally believe there is such a range in sounds and tones in mandolins that that's why so many of us end up buying multiple instruments (I've just bought a mandolin which means there're now eight in my house!!!). Guitars can be different - as you know from your years of playing, but when it comes to mandolins it never seems to end. Hope you find one you're happy with.

[UsuallyPickin]

Mike's right head to Trevor's place so you can play as many mandolin makers as you are able. And listen to someone else play them as well. You don't hear them as well from behind. Even if it involves an investment of some time and money it will be worth it. IMO the closest mandolin you will find is a Kentucky KM1000 a used one should be in your price range and a new one about 25% higher. When you do purchase one buy a ToneGuard to go with it. It is a de3vice that holds the back of the mandolin away from your body so the back can add more to the mandolins tone. Thile among others use them. Luck and patience... R/

[9lbShellhamer]

I know what exactly you mean... That early sound of Chris came from his Dudenbostal as mentioned.

It's going to take a tiny bit more cash to get there, but if you play a Collings MT I bet you'll be very pleased. You can find used ones for about $1800.

I have a Kentucky KM950 that's really nice, but honestly, the Kentucky tone is nothing like the Collings, or the tone you seek. I have an MT2 I'm really lucky to have found and more closely resembles that "modern" tone you seek. Try out some Collings and you won't be dissapointed. Also check out Pava, but they're more rare still.

[dwc]

Thile was using his Dedenbostel F5 on all of that older Nickel Creek stuff.

Here is the youtube video of "The Lighthouse Tale." 5 seconds in is a great closeup of his "Dude."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARIr6S_0lAQ

The thing about his Dudenbostel (as well as his Loar) is that it has really clean, clear trebles. To me, this is what is missing on moderately priced instruments. When you get above A4, a lot of lesser instruments loose that crisp, full sound and sound thin, shrill and piercing.

Obviously, if you have the opportunity to go play a bunch of mandolins, that would be optimal. That is pretty standard advice. The reality is that a lot of people don't have that option. In the sub $1k US range, I would recommend a Kentucky KM 900 (or 950). It isn't going to sound like Thile's mandolin, but it will be a high quality instrument and should leave enough left over for a case and setup.

[pops1]

I just saw Chris a couple weeks ago in concert and the sound of his Loar was all I could focus on. His playing was of course wonderful, but the sound I was hearing from his mandolin was to me perfect. Not just the highs, but especially the D and G strings too. Just wonderful across the board. If i could get that sound i wouldn't care that i couldn't play as well as him.

[grassrootphilosopher]

The only sensible answer for you can be: Go to TAMCO (www.theacousticmusicco.co.uk) and check out what Trevor has. TAMCO is one of the best stocked mandolin shops. Wales to Brighton (TAMCO) is about a 5 hour trip, one way. It is very well worth it.

I don´t think that there is an actual "Thile tone". The Thile aproach to me means a low setup, pick lightly and play slick. The equivalent is indeed in Sierra Hull or in the "older" pickers in Adam Steffey. I think that their tone is interchangable at times. Therefore I don´t think that it is advisable to search for a mandolin only because you have their "tone" in mind. A trip to a well stocked mando shop will be a lot more helpful.

[Caleb]

I agree with Darren. I've always found Thile's tone from the NC days the best, but some of it was likely due to studio production. In fact the entire band sounded absolutely crystal clear on those recordings.

[darrylicshon]

Matching someone's sound you hear can be very hard, there are lots of reasons. I have recorded many bands none that have been famous, but when we record lots of effects change the sound , as simply as to mic location can change the sound. And for live concerts again you have the sound engineer putting his touch to your sound , plus mic placement type of mic, what type of amp and speakers even the size shape of the venue changes the sound.

But as said above the best way is to go to TAMCO it seems like the best place near you. Remember take your mandolin to compare cause again while you're playing that mandolin at home it will sound different in the music store , compare yours to all of them cheap ones and very expensive ones there are cheap ones that sound great just not alot of them You might get lucky. I have taken my J Bovier to compare and sofar I'm really happy with it but i don't have a store like TAMCO near me. The closest store best mandolin is eastman which sofar hasn't beat mine.

[colorado_al]

I think Collings MT is one of the best mandolins in the price range, however, even a used one is going to be $1600-$1900. Even if you do make the trip to TAMCO, you're going to find Eastman mandolins are the only ones in your price range. You could contact Trevor and let him know that you're in the market and I'm sure he'll keep an eye out for something for you used.
That being said, the Eastman mandolins are the best in their price range, I think. If you're used to plugging in, you should check out the Eastman MD615. They are a great F style and usually have punchy high end and good chop/low end. They have a factory installed Schertler pickup. Exactly the price you want to pay. Worlds better than your MK.

Also, If you can wait until July, I'll be in Cardiff for 10 days. I'd be happy to provide transport for a mandolin you find in the states.

Al

Edit:
PS- Just checked out Craigslist, and I found your new mandolin:
http://london.craigslist.co.uk/msd/5323268082.html Flatiron F-5 signed by Steve Carlson

Or you could stretch your budget for this one:
http://london.craigslist.co.uk/msd/5301189300.html Derrington signed "Master Model" Gibson F5L

I think either would do you right. Both high quality mandolins from top luthiers and likely the closest you're going to get to that sound in your budget, in your area.

[Paul Cowham]

You'll probably get a better quality mandolin for a given price if you go for an A style - CT plays F style instruments which are much more time consuming to make and the general consensus here is that whilst no 2 mandolins will be the same, A style instruments (with F holes) and F style instruments sound as good as each other (i.e. being an A or F model doesn't have the biggest impact on the sound quality, the materials used and craftsmanship will though).

[CES]

Earlier Nickel Creek days he played a Rigel CT 110, basically their g110 modified to allow better upper fret clearance. Those are > budget, but a used Rigel A natural or A plus might give you something approximating tone you want at budget. Definitely not a 1924 Loar or a Dude, but very good mandolins...

[ukrobbiej]

Trevor's got some very nice mandolins at the moment in about your price range- there is a nice Shippey f hole for example, and several Weber gallatins, both oval and f holes. Maybe even a very old Gibson might grab you. There was even a lovely Old Wave in a few weeks back that is within your budget.

Robbie

[boombox]

Wow! Never expected so man replies in such a short time - thanks for the input and the welcome. To address some of the comments:
I agree there probably is a fair amount of studio tricks going on and his mandolin is a top grade instrument, the likes of which us mere mortals can only dream. On the other hand, the comments are useful - high end and clear trebles is probably what I'd say was part of the sound, but the direction towards the F5 models on CL is a steer. Eastman always seems to be a name I hear in the £1000+ bracket and while I always thought I'd upgrade to a better quality A for the price considerations, I'm not going to discount an F either.

And you don't have to tell me how great Collings instruments are - I had an OM2H and currently have a C10, but have been lusting after a CJ. I had wondered about really pushing it and trying to find something like an MT, but unfortunately, used Collings mandolins don't come up too often in the UK. Another problem with the UK is that we just don't know what other makes are good when obviously better quality instruments become available. This is where no doubt TAMCO could be my saviour - I've drooled over that site often enough in the past for guitars and recently have started getting a feel for the mandolins too.

Thanks for the pricing ideas too - I had expected I'd probably have to go higher in order not to get frustrated. My initial price estimate was based on being able to justify a mandolin AND another Collings guitar, but I may have to push my budget to £2000 - best get practising to demonstrate to the family spending that sort of lolly on a mandolin.

Thanks again.

[Timbofood]

Yep, see Trevor, make a decision, ask for his help in the choice. Then, lock yourself away and do nothing but, play and change strings for as long as you can.
I have heard fantastic talent draw amazing sound from.....junk, and be so kind to the person saying "Would you play my...?"
It's as much about commitment as instrument, "Ya gotta WANNA"!
Thile plays like he does because it's his job as well as his, apparent, passion. If you don't get passionate about it, it's hard to do.
I'm not as passionate as I used to be but, I don't make money from "playing" music (or sports) either. I just need a job.
An afterthought, we are all listening to either recorded or live "sound man" enhanced or engineered production. And I am NOT discounting talent or instrument or, engineering talent either. Just a fact.
No gasoline, just an opinion.

[colorado_al]

You could pick this one up and save yourself some money and still have quite a nice mandolin.
http://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/92500#92500

[darrylicshon]

You could pick this one up and save yourself some money and still have quite a nice mandolin.
http://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/92500#92500

I second this one if it is close anougth you should atleast try it out.

[CES]

I had the great fortune of seeing him live at a local college Friday night (Wingate's Batte Center, on the fringe of in the middle of no where, North Carolina), and was amazed at the tone of his Loar, and how cleanly he played. There were a couple of "suggested" buzzes or rattles, but not until after the 90 minute mark, and in the midst of ridiculously nasty blues runs...suspect they were intentional. It was really phenomenal. The room was extremely good, as well, and about 45 minutes into the concert he stepped up in front of his condenser mic set up and just got lost in how good the place sounded without amplification on the Am Fugue's 3 movements. It was one of those transcendent moments where he just got lost in the music and how awesome it sounded in that room, and it gives me chills thinking back on it now. I'm not a hero worship kind of guy at all, but, damn, he was amazing. He played the main Loar all night (no Flatiron Zouk, Sharp mandola, or Gilchrist F-4), used Wegen TF 140 large triangle picks (he dropped one on the stage at some point that an audience member grabbed), and, I could care less what he used. He rocked it that night, and it was all about his talent and the tone of that mandolin...

So, go to TAMCO and play the whole wall of mandolins, pick the best one you can afford, and practice like a maniac. The Nickel Creek stuff is reasonably accessible (with the exception of some amazing instrumental/solo work), the PB stuff is tougher, IMO, and the solo stuff is usually at an even greater level of difficulty. And, it's oh so worth it to try to play it!!

[almeriastrings]

http://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/92500#92500

Yes - on that budget that would be high on my list too. These have a very good reputation.

Personally, I have not played any Eastman's really that grabbed me. The aforementioned Kentucky KM900's and KM1000's can, however, be very nice instruments that are more to my taste.

To be blunt, you are not going to find a full equivalent of a 5K, 10K or 20K similar instrument on a sub-2K budget. It is not going to happen. However, there is a very big law of diminishing returns in operation here, so with the right choice, you can get pretty close sometimes. That extra 10% or 5% closer is going to cost. Big time. If you upped the budget even more, you start approaching some of the Northfield mandolins... and these can be really good.

[Ivan Kelsall]

If i was you,i'd most certainly make the journey down to TAMCO in Brighton. Even if you don't come back with another mandolin,at least you'll have chance to sample some very good ones that you might care to save up & wait a while longer for. It'll also give you a bit of a perspective regarding the qualities of "A" style & "F" style mandolins. As Paul Cowham says,"A" styles are usually more value for the cash than an "F" style,because you do pay quite a lot for the extra work required to build an "F" style.
Have a look through TAMCO's 'used' section & see if there's anything that you like,but you do need to visit TAMCO for the 'hands on & ears open experience',
Ivan

[Northwest Steve]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uf9A5RF96kg

If you are hoping to sound like this.......good luck and best wishes. One of the best mandolin players walking the earth. I could play his Loar an and not sound anything like him. The good news is you can find some very good mandolins for a reasonable price.

[JeffD]

I am not one to discount the impact of the equipment in someone's sound, but in this case, the difference between Chris Thile and me, and most of us may I say, is so much more than the instrument, or the pick.

Its not even the first step.

This whole discussion seems to me like wanting to go to the moon and so you climb on the roof because yea, it gets you a little closer.

[Timbofood]

Hand me a quarter million dollar mandolin and I will sound......just like I do on any other reasonably priced properly set up anything.
Just sayin'