another mic .vs. pickup question

[Marc Katz]

I have been using a atm pro 35 microphone rigged on my toneguard through an at wireless stomp box. I am pretty happy with it all in all. But in a trio with a guitar and bass, I still struggle with getting enough monitor volume before feedback. It always seems to get louder than the mandolin will keep up with.

It's not as much of a problem when we are doing our own sound - mostly it's a problem in a festival situation where you get a random sound guy. I think if you can eq the monitors to remove a lot of mid-lows you can get more volume before feedback in the monitors, but it's hard to make that happen most of the time.

The guitar and bass players both have piezo pickups and he get a lot of volume. I am thinking I need to either supplement the microphone with a pickup or go with a pickup when we aren't doing our own sound. I have in the past tried the shertler and didn't think it worked well picking up the chop. Plus it's also got feedback issues...

Ideas from my knowledgable brothers and sisters here would be much appreciated.

thx, Marc

[mandroid]

may be Stage craft? place monitors where the Null sensitivity gaps are..

or adopt in ear monitors?

soundboard pickups make the mandolin into a spruce Mic diaphragm, if the sound out of the monitor is loud.

Perhaps Its time for a Magnetic Pickup in a solid body Mandolin. IDK How Loud Your Shows are of Course .

[foldedpath]

That's a tough situation, and you (or rather your band mates) probably won't like my recommendation for fixing it. But here it is anyway...


Buy a couple of DPA 4099 mini condenser mics with one guitar clip and one bass clip, and force your other band members to use them instead of their pickups. Ditch the pickup cords; don't let them blend in the pickup signal with the mics. This puts all three of you on the same playing field with regard to gain before feedback. You'll all sound great -- far better than with pickups -- and it will force whoever is running the PA to deal with the situation.

Even if the festival sound engineer isn't good at feedback control, they won't have the lazy option of ramping up the pickup-equipped instruments to full gain before feedback, and then calling your clip-on mic the "problem."

Failing that, then yeah... I guess you need to blend a pickup signal with your mic. Personally, I've gone with "Plan A" above for my mandolin/guitar duo, with DPA 4099's clipped on both instruments. Anyone who sits in with us, like a guest fiddler or bodhran player, gets another clip-on mic. It works just fine whether we're running our own PA or using a house PA, because we're all on the same playing field.

[Marc Katz]

may be Stage craft? place monitors where the Null sensitivity gaps are..

or adopt in ear monitors?

soundboard pickups make the mandolin into a spruce Mic diaphragm, if the sound out of the monitor is loud.

Perhaps Its time for a Magnetic Pickup in a solid body Mandolin. IDK How Loud Your Shows are of Course .

Mandroid,
It's sure true that I am coming into an understanding of how important the 5 mins or so you have for a sound check is. Things are usually so chaotic that I have a hard time concentrating on whether there is going to be enough mando volume. And somehow everything always gets louder from there. We're not that loud, but some of the places we play are pretty loud. Still, not even close to "solid body" loud !
Marc

[TonyP]

That's a tough situation, and you (or rather your band mates) probably won't like my recommendation ...(snip)

Even if the festival sound engineer isn't good at feedback control, they won't have the lazy option of ramping up the pickup-equipped instruments to full gain before feedback, and then calling your clip-on mic the "problem."

Failing that, then yeah... I guess you need to blend a pickup signal with your mic. Personally, I've gone with "Plan A" above for my mandolin/guitar duo, with DPA 4099's clipped on both instruments. Anyone who sits in with us, like a guest fiddler or bodhran player, gets another clip-on mic. It works just fine whether we're running our own PA or using a house PA, because we're all on the same playing field.

It is and FP's fix while nice wouldn't fly with anybody I play with. It seems as though you need to go on the long search for a pickup that will work. Our guitar player has I think Radius and it sounds exactly like his guitar, which is a first for me. He also knows how to use it. I just have to set him up with good volume for solo and he pulls back for rhythm. What a concept! Pickups have come a long way. I'm lucky that my stand mounted mic still does the trick for us no problem and I'm the only one who doesn't have a pickup(guitar and standup bass ) or a mini mic(dobro). Good luck.

[foldedpath]

It is and FP's fix while nice wouldn't fly with anybody I play with.

You just have to learn how to exert Alpha dominance over your fellow band members. A good start is owning the PA system, so they have no other choice if they want to use it.

[Jim]

You just have to learn how to exert Alpha dominance over your fellow band members. A good start is owning the PA system, so they have no other choice if they want to use it.

LOL that's what I did:-) Agree entirely that mics are better, but piezos do have their place and that is anywhere that is too loud.

[Marc Katz]

That's a tough situation, and you (or rather your band mates) probably won't like my recommendation for fixing it. But here it is anyway...


Buy a couple of DPA 4099 mini condenser mics with one guitar clip and one bass clip, and force your other band members to use them instead of their pickups. Ditch the pickup cords; don't let them blend in the pickup signal with the mics. This puts all three of you on the same playing field with regard to gain before feedback. You'll all sound great -- far better than with pickups -- and it will force whoever is running the PA to deal with the situation.

Even if the festival sound engineer isn't good at feedback control, they won't have the lazy option of ramping up the pickup-equipped instruments to full gain before feedback, and then calling your clip-on mic the "problem."

Failing that, then yeah... I guess you need to blend a pickup signal with your mic. Personally, I've gone with "Plan A" above for my mandolin/guitar duo, with DPA 4099's clipped on both instruments. Anyone who sits in with us, like a guest fiddler or bodhran player, gets another clip-on mic. It works just fine whether we're running our own PA or using a house PA, because we're all on the same playing field.

Wow. that's probably really good advice. I guess you should get everyone to do the same thing whether it's mics or pups. Having a mismatch puts someone at a disadvantage. Thanks.

[almeriastrings]

Yes... in a flat-out fight of pickup vs. mic, the mics always lose. However, you need to identify the precise mechanisms at work - and it does sound like monitor levels are the prime issue in this instance. I use an ATM350 myself, and if you think about it, they are quite a bit lower down, and also moving around with you somewhat, so if you have a typical floor wedge right there, it is no surprise they will pick up quite a bit of spill. On a festival stage where you are relying on an unfamiliar system and an unfamiliar engineer (with a very brief sound check) it is a recipe for problems. With your own system, you have more options... but... do you really need such high stage volume vs. FOH volume? If you can get your guitar and bass player to bring down the monitor levels, that would improve things a lot. I can't really understand why some people insist on over-loud monitors. It messes up the sound generally, and is responsible for the vast majority of feedback issues. All everyone needs is to be able to hear each other to keep the timing and such together. It does not have to be at rock concert levels.

[mandobassman]

I played bass with a top 40 country band several years ago and sometimes switched over to mandolin for a few songs. My solution that worked really well for me was using both the mic and pickup. I used two channels on the board and ran a clip-on condenser mic to the mains and ran the pickup to the monitors, so I was able to get excellent mic sound to the audience and even though the pickup sound was not that great, I could get full volume from the monitors and not have feedback issues. Worked very well