Improving an instrument

[soliver]

Hello all! I'm new to the forum and new to the Mando. I was in one of my co-worker's/buddy's office about a month or 2 back and saw he had an Ibanez A-style Mandolin sitting in a corner and told him I had always want to give one a try. His response was to hand the instrument saying to keep it in my office and practice and play when I had the urge to wast time at work.... SWEET! Past experience playing the guitar and bass made learning the basics pretty easy and here I am.

So fast forward to me falling in love with the Mandolin, as I'm sure you all have experienced and I convince wifey to allow me to pick a craigslist buy for $50 (a birthday present). Now I've got a Rover RM-50 in decent condition, though it hasn't been set-up at all. Now, considering I only paid $50 for it and that I can also continue using my buddy's Ibanez, I'd like to try the set-up myself knowing I can always buy replacement parts (new nut, etc) if I screw anything up... and I know thats the start of making it a halfway decent instrument. I have MANY years of experience in woodworking and am very adept and using hand tools so I am really not intimidated much by the endeavor, Other than not having much money to work with... I'll have to do little things here and there to it to improve it as much as it can be improved.

I've lurked on the forum for a little while and am FULLY aware of the "Lipstick on a Pig" argument and am really not deterred by it because there is NO extensive loss for me given the very small investment I have made thus far. I have read about replacing the bridge and the tailpiece, but those will have to come down the road a little hopefully.

What I want to tackle first is the set up. The action is REALLY high at the nut and the bridge is lowered as far down as it will go. That being said I would like to work on the Nut first. Of course I plan to call around and ask about having it done by a luthier, but I may try to do it myself. Can anyone provide any info on filing the nut?... what are some affordable tools that one can get to do this? I've seen a little bit of info here and there, but am still feeling like I'm not getting all the info I need.

I also need to replace the pick guard because its super bent... does the pick guard effect the tone at all? Will it hurt to replace it with an inexpensive one?

Also I read something about "distressing" the instrument; meaning to remove some of the excessive amount of finish to improve the tone... how is this done? Sanding? Stripper?

All of your help definitely is appreciated.

[Jim]

There is a great, free ebook by cafe member Rob Meldrum that will explain setup. can be found here http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...hlight=robster
That Rover RM50 is a fine instrument and you got a good deal on it. Enjoy and let us know how it turns out.
Welcome to the cafe.

[soliver]

Many thanks Jim, I've emailed Rob already.

Can anyone speak to the pick-guard or distress questions?

[Tobin]

The pick guard (or finger rest, as some of us prefer to call it) shouldn't have any effect on tone. And despite the fact that it generally covers one of the sound holes, it really doesn't have any discernible effect on volume either. You should be able to replace it or remove it with no concerns at all.

Those cheap finger rests always seem to bend, twist, or bow. I don't know why they keep putting them on there like that. You might be able to glue a stiffener to the underside that will help straighten it out and keep it straight. Or just make a new one out of any material you like.

[sunburst]

Remove the pickguard and throw it away, replace it with another, anything you want. The sound will not change.
These types of mandolin are typically overbuilt. The effort put into removing finish is pretty much wasted effort that is not likely to make a significant difference in sound, and has the potential to make the appearance... ah... different (yeah, "different"...).

It is also common for these types of mandolins to need fret work before they can be set up well. Wood working experience and hand tool proficiency, unfortunately, are barely a head start in learning to produce excellent fret work, so having the frets checked out by an experienced luthier might make your set up attempts worthwhile rather than frustrating, if the frets are in need of attention.

Check out Frets.com for tips, instructions and lots of nice pictures for nut work, bridge work, and most aspects of set up.

[spufman]

Pick guard is not necessary in my experience, and I'd personally take it off.

For the nut, you can buy the nice files from Stew-Mac et al. I like the rounded ones, versus the v-taper ones. Of course these are not inexpensive. Alternatives include making files by gluing lengths of mandolin string to a dowel (only good for the wound courses), or notching regular feeler gauges of the appropriate thicknesses. These same tools can be used on your bridge.

You can bring down the finish with assorted grades of sandpaper and/or steel wool, just like you would imagine.

Keep having fun, the mandolin is a beautiful, engaging instrument.

[MikeEdgerton]

I always suggest adding Waverly tuners and a James tailpiece.

[sblock]

I always suggest adding Waverly tuners and a James tailpiece.

I hope the OP, who is new to the mandolin, realizes that Mike is totally kidding, here. Still, just think: a well-setup Rover equipped with Waverly tuners and a James tailpiece, played by a really strong player, would make a GREAT ironic statement if they took it to a bluegrass festival! I hope someone does that someday, and I'm around to see it.

[mandroid]

Yea $50 Rover may be a wooden Dog that just wont Bark like something that an effort was put into building
requiring a $500 price tag.

the playability improvements so it notes well may be the realistic approach ..

the Concours de Swine effort should be suppressed. save the $ for the Next Purchase ..

[sunburst]

...just think: a well-setup Rover equipped with Waverly tuners and a James tailpiece, played by a really strong player, would make a GREAT ironic statement if they took it to a bluegrass festival!

Only if they pull it out of a Calton Deluxe case.

[Isaac Revard]

Hey congratulations! The best mandolin is your own. I'm sure you'll get it set up properly with some help here.

[MikeEdgerton]

Only if they pull it out of a Calton Deluxe case.

I would have added that but I was afraid people wouldn't take me seriously.

[Willie Poole]

I always figured that if those "El cheapos" could be made to sound a lot better then the builders would make them better and ask for more money for them...The wood and carving the correct thickness on the top and back would mean they would have to put in a lot more hours when building and that means more money to the buyer...Keep it as it is and learn as much as you can and save until you can afford to step up to another higher priced mandolin, and to do that you will have to search and play a lot of mandolins before you make up your mind. or at least you should do that, some people just buy an expensive mandolin on some one`s say so but it may not be the right one for you so play as many as you can...You can spend a lot of money trying to get that Rover to sound like a Gibson but it will never happen, at least I am not aware of it happening in my travels...

Willie

[Tobin]

Also I read something about "distressing" the instrument; meaning to remove some of the excessive amount of finish to improve the tone... how is this done? Sanding? Stripper?

Oh, I wanted to address this. "Distressing" is usually a cosmetic procedure to make the instrument look like it has many years of road wear on it, and has nothing to do with improving the tone. The goal is to beat it up and produce fake wear spots where a player would normally rub on it. Folks tend to do this with sandpaper, scrapers, screwdrivers, chains (LOL), or whatever they think will give it that look.

That's not to be confused with just removing a thick finish from the entire body to help bring out the tone and volume. Some of the lower-end imported instruments have a very thick finish that's difficult to sand off. It tends to gum up the sandpaper and many people resort to scraping it off. I'm not sure what finish is on yours, but if you're trying to remove it to help the tone, sandpaper would be the place to start. Are you looking to remove it completely and refinish it?

[soliver]

First and foremost, thanks for all the replies gang, I appreciate the input. I actually found a guy who said he can help with the action at the nut for minimal cost, so I may go that route as that is the part that most intimidates me... I want to handle the rest on my own.

I am FULLY aware that putting a lot of money into fixing it up will is really only polishing the poop, but I'm not opposed to putting a little bit into it for the sake of learning and minimal improvement. While $50 is not something to sneeze at for a low income guy like me, it's not going to break the bank. So I'm going to do with it what I can. Not to mention that I've spent a couple thousand $$$ on my other hobby in the last few years and I'm pretty sure I would end up suffering some serious spousal abuse with the onset of another expensive hobby... so I plan to keep costs down.

Oh, I wanted to address this. "Distressing" is usually a cosmetic procedure to make the instrument look like it has many years of road wear on it, and has nothing to do with improving the tone. The goal is to beat it up and produce fake wear spots where a player would normally rub on it. Folks tend to do this with sandpaper, scrapers, screwdrivers, chains (LOL), or whatever they think will give it that look.

Yeah, I see I used the wrong term... not going to beat the thing into submission.

That's not to be confused with just removing a thick finish from the entire body to help bring out the tone and volume. Some of the lower-end imported instruments have a very thick finish that's difficult to sand off. It tends to gum up the sandpaper and many people resort to scraping it off. I'm not sure what finish is on yours, but if you're trying to remove it to help the tone, sandpaper would be the place to start. Are you looking to remove it completely and refinish it?

No definitive plan... According to Sunburst above it's not worth the trouble, but if it will actually help, I'll consider doing it. Is there anything wrong with using a chemical stripper rather than sandpaper or scrapers?.... What kind of finish is typical, lacquer? Shellac? To what degree would a complete refinish help?

Thanks again gang,
Spencer

[ccravens]

I used sandpaper on my starter Kentucky KM150. Sanded the thick finish off; took a lot of time, and yes, you can use a chemical stripper, but I can't remember my research into that.

I also gave it a different color and sprayed some finish. It ended up looking like this:





Long story short, it made NO discernable difference in sound, which is the main reason I did it all in the first place.

[mandobassman]

I'm not sure that removing the finish would really do all that much. The Rover is a fairly decent starter instrument as it is. You're really better off just sticking to improving playability with adjusting the nut slots and bridge height. That alone will make playing it much more enjoyable.

BTW, great find getting that Rover for $50. They sell new for about $180.

[soliver]

@ccravens and @mandobassman, thanks guys, I think you've convinced me not to bother with the finish... though it's not very pretty. I'm taking it Wednesday to have the action adjusted and will delve deeper into Rob's book on set-up from there.

How about strings? The factory strings on it don't seem all that great so I'm probably going to change them. What kind of strings can I get for it at a decent price that won't sound like thrumming a terd?

[MysTiK PiKn]

Somebody used to have a sig that said that a bargain was no bargain if you can't play it.
I hear only that this mando is "totalled" already, and the future seems questionable too.
Good luck. You are turning down an opportunity to learn how to setup your next mando. But that's ok; we all have our creative process. This one is too cool. Does it have a truss rod? I don't know rover, except from ancient fairy tales. Really, there's nothing to lose here; unless you pay to delete the learning curve. The cost just doubled. You still need to read the book - but that's free, so what's it worth? I like unlimited mandolin dreams. It all matters; or it won't. Your call. Choose your limitation.

[MikeEdgerton]

Somebody used to have a sig that said that a bargain was no bargain if you can't play it.

I have no idea who that could possibly be.

[colorado_al]

If there is a reputable shop or individual who can set it up for you, nut, bridge, truss rod, at minimal cost, that is the best thing you can do to help with playability. You could do it yourself, if you want, but it really comes down to how much is your time worth? After that, the cheapest and best way to affect the tone is to use different strings.

[soliver]

Thanks for the help guys, much appreciated.

[soliver]

Thoughts on strings anyone? Affordable brands that will do me right?

[JeffD]

. You could do it yourself, if you want, but it really comes down to how much is your time worth? .

I am firmly in this camp.

Set ups are a separate hobby, one which many enjoy.

Rob's book is very useful regardless, in learning to identify and understand playability problems and what might need to be done.

[colorado_al]

After you get the instrument setup properly, you might not need to change string types. If you do want to experiment with different sounds, try flatwound strings. They will be the most different from the strings you likely have now. http://m.juststrings.com/dad-fw74.html
Changing string gauge can also make a difference.