Mandolin Intonation Issues

[Jonkay]

I have a The Loar 700 F-model mandolin, and I have very carefully and precisely set the bridge using the Polytune Clip On Tuner. The G note at the 12th fret matches the open string G perfectly. Same with the E string. It's more or less kind of in tune, but chords sound a little off. Thing is, I went to Guitar Center and there was a 700 model hanging on the wall. It played perfectly, and by that, I mean the open G and open D chords rang sweet and true. All the open chords were really in tune without any dissonance. What do you think is going on with that mandolin, and why doesn't my mandolin sound like that? What would be the remedy? Could the bridge be a factor? I am really puzzled about this. Can anyone help?

[Seattle]

It's probably the difference between being in tune and being "more or less kind of in tune".

I would check every string to make sure they are all in tune. Sometimes one string in a pair will be off slightly and it makes a big difference in how it sounds.

[sblock]

Another possibility is that that action on your Loar 700 F-model may be too high at the 12th fret (i.e., more than around ~1/16th", or ~62 thousandths. Going lower is OK, if things don't buzz, but going much higher is probably not). Fretting a string that's too high above the fret may stretch the wire a bit too much, so the harmonic at that fret will match a sharpened note. This can cause the bridge to be slightly misplaced, and the intonation to be systematically off over the whole fretboard.

[Jonkay]

I have carefully checked the tuning on all strings using the Polytune Clip. The action feels comfortable. I suppose that I could lower it, but then it would seem too loosey goosey. Too low of an action would make it more difficult to play.

[Seattle]

All strings are spot on open and fretted all up and down the fretboard and it doesn't sound good? Are the strings old?

[Jonkay]

Sblock, thanks for the good advice.Seattle, I just put a fresh set of J74s on it two days ago. Any, I lowered the action, which didnt seem all that high to me. Intonation really improved. Not a hundred per cent, but livable. I also have a Breedlove Spirit, an A model shaped instrument. Have never had intonation issues with the Breedlove.

[sblock]

I have carefully checked the tuning on all strings using the Polytune Clip. The action feels comfortable. I suppose that I could lower it, but then it would seem too loosey goosey. Too low of an action would make it more difficult to play.

Well, doesn't that beat all?! I have NEVER heard anyone remark that too low an action makes an instrument more difficult to play! It's the other way around, my friend!! But I suppose if you read the Mandolin Cafe for long enough, you will read every possible opinion expressed, along with its converse!

It pays to keep the action as low as your instrument, and your mode of playing, will accommodate, until, of course, the action gets so low that some strings start to buzz, or lose volume, or get over-driven by picking, in which case the problem has nothing whatsoever to do with a "difficulty of playing" -- only with the sound becoming impure and distorted. Also, a low action most certainly does not makes things "loosey goosey." The string tension for a given pitch is very nearly the same, irrespective of the height of the action.

If your mandolin still sounds out of tune after adjusting your action and bridge position properly, some other things to consider include: (1) a new set of strings (bad/cheap strings with diameters that vary slightly along their lengths can never be tuned so that notes are correct at other frets, and old strings produce an entirely different set of tuning problems), and (2) checking to see if the nut is positioned properly and (3) that the fretboard was slotted properly. But my money is still on your not having the bridge position right or the action too high.

[sblock]

Jonkay -- oops! Looks like our messages crossed! I am glad to hear that lowering the action helped!! Now that the action is lower, I would re-check (and re-set) the bridge position, if you haven't done so already.

[Mandobart]

Have you checked intonation at every fret on every string? Specifically is the intonation right on the first 7 frets? Everyone sets bridge position based on the 12th fret (halfway point) harmonic and fretted note. However, if these match correctly but the nut slots are too shallow or sloped wrong the lower frets will not have correct intonation.

[Robert B]

I like my electronic clip on tuner, but I don't really trust it. Sensitivity can go haywire with a weak battery or even with the location of where it's clipped. I've come to appreciate a strobe tuner app for my phone, from Peterson... Much more precise than my clip on.

[Mandoplumb]

I bought one of the first The Loar mandolins that I had seen. Intonation was terrible because the slots in the nut and bridge were sloppily cut. The strings must ride right on the fretboard edge and be the same depth in the pair or the pair won't be "twinned" when noted. Because of the short scale and unison string pair a mandolin is very unforgiving in set-up.

[mandroid]

I and a friend in town Both own a Gibson A4 , mine is OK , his only intonated right,
after he had the fingerboard replaced .

the Factory Gang saws that cut all the slots in one pass dont stay perfect forever,

and thus some error in fret slot spacing creeps in.

but the replacement one was done right, + they scooped

the last couple frets worth of the new one.

[George R. Lane]

If the strings have been on for a couple od days , they might not have settled in. I usually pull up on them and then re-tune.

[pops1]

Have you checked the truss rod adjustment, too much relief would cause chords and notes to not ring true as there would be more stretch in areas like the 5-9th fret or more depending how much it was out of adjustment.

[Rob Meldrum]

My guess is that the nut slots have not been angled back towards the tuning pegs. It seems like a little thing but it can really throw off the intonation.

Email me at rob.meldrum@gmail.com and I will send you my free ebook on how to set up a mandolin. I cover cutting the nut slots in detail and show you how to make your own nut saws using a $5-10 set of automotive feeler gauges.

Rob

[mandobassman]

Well, doesn't that beat all?! I have NEVER heard anyone remark that too low an action makes an instrument more difficult to play! It's the other way around, my friend!! But I suppose if you read the Mandolin Cafe for long enough, you will read every possible opinion expressed, along with its converse!

I would agree with action being too low makes it more difficult to play. When I received my J Bovier, Jeff had set the action much lower that I would ever play it. I couldn't play with the strength I wanted too without lots of string noise. First thing I did was raise it nearly double what it was. Much more comfortable to play without having to hold back.

[UsuallyPickin]

I didn't read all of the above posts so if I repeat I'll say so sorry.W hen setting the bridge I match to open , twelfth fret and the harmonic tones. Getting all three to match with the tuner is a PITA. What I do is loosen all but the outer E and G strings and set those two strings as exactly as I am able. This usually does the trick for me. When it does not work it is because the fret setting is off from the factory , the face is collapsing or the neck joint has movement. R/

[Rob Meldrum]

Another good test, if you have a tuner that covers all notes (most do) is verify itch accuracy open, then on first fret, second fret, all the way up to the 12th. If the open string is right on and every other fretted note is consistently sharp (or flat), then you know you need to re-file the nut and make sure it is angled down, away from the fretboard.

If the pitch goes off at some frets and is right-on on other frets, then you have an issue with the frets themselves, typically spacing or uneven fret wear. Most present-day factory-built mandolins don't have this issue but I can see hand-built mandolins potentially suffering from occasional fret irregularity. Anyhow, it's an easy test.

[Mandoplumb]

I didn't read all of the above posts so if I repeat I'll say so sorry.W hen setting the bridge I match to open , twelfth fret and the harmonic tones. Getting all three to match with the tuner is a PITA. What I do is loosen all but the outer E and G strings and set those two strings as exactly as I am able. This usually does the trick for me. When it does not work it is because the fret setting is off from the factory , the face is collapsing or the neck joint has movement. R/

Or the nut and/or bridge is not cut properly. As Rob said the string must rest on the front edge to tune correctly.