Dunlop Americana picks - am I doing it wrong?

[Ausdoerrt]

So I bought these picks recently in my attempt to select the "perfect" pick for my mando-playing. Like so: http://www.jdmc.com/product/494P101.html

Aaand, I don't get it. I love the material, it is sturdy and provides an excellent grip. But, I can't get any sound out of them. Instead of plucking the string, the (very) rounded edge just sort of rolls off the string, producing barely any sound

I don't have this problem with the more guitar-y picks like Ultex Triangle and Tortex Triangle and Wedge shapes. I do hold the instrument at a slight angle, as many online lessons suggest (and as copied from famous players like Chris Thile).

Is anyone using these? What am I doing wrong?

[Timbofood]

A couple of things come to mind,
First,
Your right hand position and attack angle, if it's too sharp, you will not strike the string with the pick perpendicularand it glances off the round "point"
Second,
The shape isn't right for how you do play even if the above is in proper relationship (pick angle to string) as is my case.
I have decided that that shape,no matter how much Thile and Grisman or <insert name here> swear by them, simply dosen't feel right to me.
There is another thread about the traveling pick sampler which Caleb started with a (very nice) Wegen, first taste, I liked it but, needed to really dig in with the guys in my band and, the shape was just too round for me to get very comfortable with it. After the first half of a set I changed to my other shape (V-Pick Jalapeño) and it just suits me better. I liked the tone all by myself but, I don't tend to just sit and plink away, I need my boys to spur me on. Playing alone, it was pretty good
Check the thread and see who is adding what and keep your eye on it, jump in at some point and tell them you want to be in line.
Third,
There is no "Perfect" pick.

[David Lewis]

So I bought these picks recently in my attempt to select the "perfect" pick for my mando-playing. Like so: http://www.jdmc.com/product/494P101.html Aaand, I don't get it. I love the material, it is sturdy and provides an excellent grip. But, I can't get any sound out of them. Instead of plucking the string, the (very) rounded edge just sort of rolls off the string, producing barely any sound I don't have this problem with the more guitar-y picks like Ultex Triangle and Tortex Triangle and Wedge shapes. I do hold the instrument at a slight angle, as many online lessons suggest (and as copied from famous players like Chris Thile). Is anyone using these? What am I doing wrong?

1) we are all different and the rounded edge just might not be you. There's no shame nor embarrassment in that.

But

2) keep working on it. Go from the wrist, hold it lightly, etc. the late John Mcgann suggested you use a pick like a bow. It would be nice to see your technique.

[David Lewis]

Timbofood:maybe we are brothers separated by half a world. ?

[Timbofood]

David was it you that was fond of the "Memphis Belle" for electric use? I can't warm up to the curvature, I prefer slightly rounded triangle shapes or,the old "Nick Lucas" plain fender shape after about two hours hard picking. The edge rounds off just enough. I have probably a gross of them, I should throw a couple of those in the mix too. Just gave away my "used" one so, I will need to break in this one a bit more:


Maybe we are just a day off?

[Ausdoerrt]

Your right hand position and attack angle, if it's too sharp, you will not strike the string with the pick perpendicular and it glances off the round "point"

I thought that striking at a slight angle was the point for holding the instrument at an angle? Obv. I'm getting some sound if I strike perpendicular, but then I'd have to hold the instrument perpendicular as well.

Second,
The shape isn't right for how you do play even if the above is in proper relationship (pick angle to string) as is my case.
I have decided that that shape,no matter how much Thile and Grisman or <insert name here> swear by them, simply dosen't feel right to me.

Well, I'm a complete beginner to mandolin, hence me asking the basic questions. As I noted, I have no issue with using the sharper-edge picks.

[AlanN]

That Dunlop Americana pick looks like it would work for me. If anyone cares to send one my way, I would send you off a pick of your choice - Dunlop 1.14 Rhino, something similar. PM if interested, thanks.

[Timbofood]

I get the point (), it will take a few tries to find what feels right to you, it's all very personal. Don't give up, change your right hand a little and see off that improves the feel. It's what makes you happy and comfortable that is important.

[JeffD]

While there is no perfect pick, and indeed some picks are better for this situation and some for that - I have found picks that I just cannot use. I just don't like them.

It is more about how I play and what I like than anything about the pick. Nothing "wrong" with them, I just have trouble making the sounds I want with them. For a different kind of player, with a different attack angle and pressure, different mandolin, and different ears, they might really good. In fact some of the picks I don't care for are rather popular.

[Ausdoerrt]

Thanks all for the input! I guess I got the answers to my questions.

However, if there's anyone with experience using these specific picks, it would be curious to hear about how you use them. :D

[DavidKOS]

But, I can't get any sound out of them. Instead of plucking the string, the (very) rounded edge just sort of rolls off the string, producing barely any sound

I don't have this problem with the more guitar-y picks l

Nothing except using a round pick. Just because some folks do, doesn't make them a great choice for everyone.

I have decided that that shape,no matter how much Thile and Grisman or <insert name here> swear by them, simply dosen't feel right to me.

Well, I'm a complete beginner to mandolin, hence me asking the basic questions. As I noted, I have no issue with using the sharper-edge picks.

I'm taking the more Italian-classical viewpoint, rather than Bluegrass orthodoxy and use of the post-Dawg pick.

All the classical mandolin books for over a hundred plus years recommend a pick with a point.

The modern use of a rounded pick is all too common and results in a tone that is less rich in high harmonics.

Simple.

Get a pick that is as you say, more "guitar-y".

[djeffcoat]

Try beveling the edge of the pick or try a Dunlop Primetone pick. They have the same shape and are beveled.

[JH Murray]

I used the Dunlop Americana and I also found it difficult. You do have to play perpendicular to get any volume out of it. It is good for brushing the strings lightly for tremolo, but that was all I could do with it. I put a bevel on it, which helped. I eventually found a different pick which worked better for my technique.

[Chughes423]

I had the same issue. The feel and sound was nice but it was not loud at all. Good luck!

[acousticphd]

Try beveling the edge of the pick or try a Dunlop Primetone pick. They have the same shape and are beveled.

I would suggest doing the same before moving on to another shape/style.
Over the years I have gotten to the point where every single pick I use - whether for mando, mandola, guitar et al - I do some modification by hand to the shape of the points and the bevel.
For mandolin, I use Golden Gates, which are at least almost identical thickness and shape to these Dunlops (1.5 mm rounded tri; not sure how similar they are in the material). Brand new, the edge is pretty much U-shaped in profile, which is great for gliding smoothly through the string, but doesn't produce much attack. You can really modify this by hand-beveling the points - not making them sharper points, but thinner wedges, and with a 3-pt pick you try several variations. My finished product has a bevel that is 2X longer or more than the pick thickness; ie, maybe 25-30 degrees. The finished edge, though narrower, still has a smooth roundness.

If you want to experiment with more slightly rounded pick points, an alternative is to start with a more triangular shape (eg, the Ultex triangle, which for me is still considerably too pointy), and round off as well as bevel the points to get something more intermediate. Along with pick thickness, point pointiness, and attack angle, I think beveling is still a key manipulation to produce the right combination of tone, volume, and picking fluidity with heavier picks.

I've heard it opined here that one shouldn't have to reshape or modify a pick - as in, "why would I buy a pick that wasn't already the right shape?" The answer has to be because it works better for you that way.

[Mandoplumb]

"Why would I buy a pick that wasn't already the shape I want". Because they don't make a pick just like I want. My wife wants to know why I buy a mandolin, bring it home then start working on it, same reason.

[Timbofood]

Again...
There is no perfect pick.
There are some pretty damned fine mandolins but, again, they all need final tweaking to make them personal.
Set up is a little different for everyone too. I have yet to pick an instrument up and have it truly "fit". So, Mandoplumb, you are perfectly justified. Having a wife that understands the fact is not uncommon but, when you get it right she will be happy for you. I'm sure she's been down this road before.

[objectsession]

I thought that striking at a slight angle was the point for holding the instrument at an angle? Obv. I'm getting some sound if I strike perpendicular, but then I'd have to hold the instrument perpendicular as well.

I might be wrong, but I think holding the instrument at a certain angle (which differs by player) has more to do with positioning your arms and hands correctly/comfortably. I guess part of that is pick angle, but you should be able to adjust your pick a little bit just by moving your thumb and index finger.

I find the rounded pick to be particularly sensitive to pick angle. I figure that some people are able to take advantage of that variation. And I think thicker picks in general just take more practice to work right. I've heard a few people suggest starting with a thinner pick to make learning a little easier (and plenty of people of experienced players use a thinner pick, too).

[David Lewis]

David was it you that was fond of the "Memphis Belle" for electric use? I can't warm up to the curvature, I prefer slightly rounded triangle shapes or,the old "Nick Lucas" plain fender shape after about two hours hard picking. The edge rounds off just enough. I have probably a gross of them, I should throw a couple of those in the mix too. Just gave away my "used" one so, I will need to break in this one a bit more: <img src="http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=137889"/> Maybe we are just a day off?

It's not my 'go to' pick but I like it on solid bodies.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Having a lot of experience with many types of plastic,Polycarbonate in it's many forms is one of them,i'd venture the opinion that PC is too soft to make a decent pick & the big,round edges don't help anyway. That's why even though the material is harder than PC,the Dawg & Golden Gate picks don't work for me. PC's big strength - literally,is that it's incredibly tough stuff- think police riot shields etc. However,i'ts relatively 'soft', & even the harder specifications of the material are 'soft' . In the past i've made guitar picks from the stuff & after a few hours playing,the edges were ragged. If you need a good pick,that's going to give you good volume & at a reasonable cost,try some of Dunlop's ''Primetone'' picks. They are widely available in a number of thicknesses & shapes,so you should find one to suit you. One of these should give you all the volume & clarity you need,
Ivan

[DavidKOS]

If you need a good pick,that's going to give you good volume & at a reasonable cost,try some of Dunlop's ''Primetone'' picks. They are widely available in a number of thicknesses & shapes,so you should find one to suit you. One of these should give you all the volume & clarity you need,
Ivan

These are pretty good all-around guitar/mandolin picks.

Normal shape...not rounded off on the tip....good value.

Thanks for mentioning them.

[SincereCorgi]

Does everybody who uses a Dawg or Golden Gate re-bevel them? I periodically take mine out and try them again, thinking that with experience I'll suddenly 'get' them, but I feel like I can't strike a string with one so much as rub it.

[DavidKOS]

Does everybody who uses a Dawg or Golden Gate re-bevel them? I periodically take mine out and try them again, thinking that with experience I'll suddenly 'get' them, but I feel like I can't strike a string with one so much as rub it.

Or I feel like I can't pluck the string....as in plectrum....and need pointed slightly flexible picks to really "strike" the string. Not to mention the loss of brilliance by "rubbing" the strings with a rounded pick.

I just do not understand why after so many years of master Italian and classical mandolinists using picks with some sort of pointed tip that so many people use those round poker chips. Am I missing something?

Eventually I'll stop posting about this issue! I apologize for constantly suggesting that picks need a pointed tip.

[Timbofood]

No you won't David, just like I won't quit posting about how it's called playing not working music. It's just our thing!
I agree, there must be some point I like mine a little bit off brand new but, not like an overcoat button.
Traveling pick sampler is leaving its first stop and off to PA. later today.

[Ivan Kelsall]

From SincereCorgi - " Does everybody who uses a Dawg or Golden Gate re-bevel them ?". I tried it,but the sheer thickness simply makes them slide over the string without imparting hardly any motion to the string. Thick picks,even re-pointed & bevelled just don't work for me,
Ivan