Loar remorse? Is it possible?

[dan in va]

Chris Stanley an i had some long talks when planning a plain-Jane A5. He has owned 3 Loars, and the one known by some as the "Shop Lifted Loar" would only begin to open up after some 8 hours of playing and was underwhelming, to say the least. i wonder why it is that not much is said about the ones that are dogs…maybe it has something to do with resale value. It might be interesting to know how many of these vintage tone midgets are out there.

Earlier this summer i had the wonderful pleasure of picking on a '24 F5 Virzi that belongs to a well known vintage dealer in Richmond VA. It was a wonderful instrument in every way and a moment i'm grateful for.

[shins]

Apart from the fact that would make Tom Ellis by far the oldest mandolin luthier ever, in the entire history of the universe, I hate to point out that "Loars" are Gibsons.

you act like I don't know that.

And you act like saying a loar is a terrible value for the average joe is bad advice?

I still insist that the aveage, sane mandolin player (if they exist) can get a nicer sounding, modern made mandoln for multitudes less without the limited edition, antique, collectors edition loar label on it.

buying an antique loar made gibson for tone alone will ALWAYS leave you with buyer remorse because superior tone is not the reason why there is such a high price tag on them. The high price tag reflects its antique collectors item, limited edition status. Unless you are buying it as a historical collectors piece, you are going into the transaction for the wrong reasons and will regret it otherwise.

[Timbofood]

But, it's pretty clear that there are precious few "average, sane" mandolin players. For me this is the most moot point, I will never have the disposable income to purchase one. If I had that kind of cash, I might commission a build, not buy an original Loar, no matter how much I might want one. I'd probably spend the balance on a small cottage...oh, and a new roof.
I'm sure there are Loar owners who dearly love the instrument, and well they should. They are truly instruments to be enjoyed, some may be better than others to be sure but that has,nothing to do with the OP.
As for remorse, there's enough of that in the world for me not consider it in this case.

[Jeff Mando]

I'd probably spend the balance on a small cottage...oh, and a new roof.

I with ya on that new roof, Timbo! My buddy, a musician who used to do roofing told me, "what are you worried about--you've got five layers of shingles up there--ain't no way it can leak!"

[Ken Waltham]

If I had to pick between a Dudenbostel, Ellis, Gilchrist, or any other, and a signed Loar F5, and the price was EXACTLY the same, I would choose a Gibson F5 signed Loar every time. Just sayin'.

[Demetrius]

How about if Bill Monroe never played one?
They definitely didn't float to many musicians
boats back in the 20's, 30's or the 40's for that matter:

[Timbofood]

Jeff, my guitar player did the last roofing job..........
He is a swell guitar player.
If I have any disposable coin, I have Bill Halsey build me one but, you all know that!

Officespace, Dave Appolon was pretty fond of them. And enough folks bought them to make many of us mere mortals pine for one. I said many, not all.
I'd kind of like a Lyon and Healy for a month or two just to play with.

[David Lewis]

How about if Bill Monroe never played one? They definitely didn't float to many musicians boats back in the 20's, 30's or the 40's for that matter:

If bill had played a round hole f4 regularly:

It's an interesting question. Would the chop have come? Would the warmer tones of the round hole have affected the drive? Would he have played more legato?

It's an interesting question.

[FLATROCK HILL]

Waaaaay over rated sound wise. Maybe 100 years ago it was better than the rest but today? Absolutely not. Those old gibsons, ellis, and loars should only be expected to be collectors items.

Even if it's just flame-throwing nonsense, I'd think Tom E. is likely flattered to be included in such company.
(Well, except that it makes him a very senior citizen.)

Apart from the fact that would make Tom Ellis by far the oldest mandolin luthier ever, in the entire history of the universe, I hate to point out that "Loars" are Gibsons.

you act like I don't know that.

Shins, These words, the words from the quote above are your words: "Those old gibsons, ellis, and loars should only be expected to be collectors items."

I can't speak for almeriastrings, but honestly, all any of us can do is read the words you wrote, and take those words for what they mean.

[Timbofood]

David, there are actually quite a number of recordings with Mr. Monroe using an F-4. I know that some of the well respected members could post some references to specific recordings but, that's a little beyond my memory. I want to say the recording of "Wheel Hoss" on the "Plays Bluegrass Instrumentals" has Monroe using an F-4.
F-5 Loar, I think you were the repository for this information once upon a time, yes?
I still love that album!

[JeffD]

Waaaaay over rated sound wise. .

Maybe Lloyd Loar should be in the Academy of the Overrated.

[Demetrius]

I won't lie, I'd love a loar.... A couple specific ones that I've played.

[David Lewis]

David, there are actually quite a number of recordings with Mr. Monroe using an F-4. I know that some of the well respected members could post some references to specific recordings but, that's a little beyond my memory. I want to say the recording of "Wheel Hoss" on the "Plays Bluegrass Instrumentals" has Monroe using an F-4. F-5 Loar, I think you were the repository for this information once upon a time, yes? I still love that album!

As usual, I wrote quickly. I knew Monroe played the f4, but I meant if he didn't use the f5 as his main instrument. Just some mental doodling.

Alas, I'm not the repository of information on it, though I know some. I'm more of a suppository I guess. :P

[Ivan Kelsall]

From Ken Waltham - "If I had to pick between a Dudenbostel, Ellis, Gilchrist, or any other, and a signed Loar F5,....". ,Even if it sounded let's say ''less good'' than the others ?. I'd always choose the one that sounded 'more pleasing' to ,my ears, irrespective of make, model, cost etc.& you can add a few far less expensive instruments into the mix if you'd care to,i'd still do the same. Would i choose a Northfield or Kentucky over a Dude.,.Gil., Ellis. Loar ? - if it sounded 'more pleasing' to me,yes,every time,
Ivan

[Bertram Henze]

You know you are rich when you don't have to take prices seriously and can afford to play a cheap mandolin.

[Justus True Waldron]

I've played a couple of Loars and a Fern. One was hands down the best mandolin I've ever played, just dripping with mojo and "ancient tones". The others have been pretty good, but not the best I've ever played. That said, to me it's almost impossible to judge a mandolin based off of a couple minutes playing it in one location. When I first bought the Macica mandolin I own now I was super excited to finally step up from the Kentucky I had been playing. I'll admit though the advantages were lost on me at first... for the first month or so I loved it but I couldn't really notice too much difference in sound or playablility from my old mandolin. After a month or so of solid playing? I picked up my Kentucky and knew I could never go back. It was the same way when I stepped up my clarinet from a plastic Vito to my Selmer Centered Tone... Complete night and day difference!

I think there are a lot of factors that go into that, but my theory is that it takes a long time to really build a relationship with an instrument and learn to tap into the things it does well... how to pull the best tone out of it, etc. If you try a lot of instruments I think you can get good at picking up on what one does well quicker, but to REALLY get the most out of an instrument takes time and a lot of playing. I think that's possibly one reason for those "concert violinist can't tell Strad from chinese violin!" blind tests that pop up every now and again... I bet if they played the Strads for a couple months then tried to go back they would notice a profound difference!

Obviously not all instruments even by the same company/maker are going to be killers, but there is also the aspect of what people are looking for. Lots of people today are looking for that deep woody "woof" tone, and well Loars just aren't always like that. A lot of them tend to be more even/balanced (despite whatever Ronnie M might have said), which is why they were originally used for classical and C.T. uses his for all kinds of music. If you pick one up having never played one and you're expecting the biggest baddest "woof" chop of your life, you're going to have a bad time....

[Fretbear]

Here's Ronnie:
While it is very difficult to separate the sound of the man from his axe, the sound of his red X-braced Gil has a penetration, note separation and clarity that is jaw dropping. I've also heard him play his "Mexican" Loar, but have never heard it sound like this.

[grassrootphilosopher]

Here's Ronnie:
While it is very difficult to separate the sound of the man from his axe, the sound of his red X-braced Gil has a penetration, note separation and clarity that is jaw dropping. I've also heard him play his "Mexican" Loar, but have never heard it sound like this.

I clearly prefer the sound of the Mexican Loar. The Gil that he had on tour in Europe (The Mountain) was nice also. But the Loar has what I like in a mandolon tone.

[Timbofood]

David, are we brothers separated by half a world?
I understood your point but, just clarifying for some who are (think Frank Wakefied) not as "Wiiise".

[JeffD]

Itzhak Perlman, quoting from liner notes accompanying one of his Bach recordings:

People often ask which I prefer to play: the Stradivarius or the Guarnerius. I must admit that although each instrument has its own unique qualities and characteristics, I find it a great pleasure to change from one to the other and I certainly love playing them both.

I am sure he has a few other violins he takes out for similar reasons.

[Hendrik Ahrend]

Obviously not all instruments even by the same company/maker are going to be killers, but there is also the aspect of what people are looking for. Lots of people today are looking for that deep woody "woof" tone, and well Loars just aren't always like that. A lot of them tend to be more even/balanced (despite whatever Ronnie M might have said), which is why they were originally used for classical and C.T. uses his for all kinds of music. If you pick one up having never played one and you're expecting the biggest baddest "woof" chop of your life, you're going to have a bad time....

Fine statement, Justus. I agree 100%.

[Hendrik Ahrend]

Here's Ronnie:
While it is very difficult to separate the sound of the man from his axe, the sound of his red X-braced Gil has a penetration, note separation and clarity that is jaw dropping. I've also heard him play his "Mexican" Loar, but have never heard it sound like this.

When Ronnie got his red S-hole Gil and Del eventually went for a D-18, I thought the McCoury sound took a weird upside down turn - bright guitar, dark mandolin, the latter almost drowned by the band, as opposed to the bright and audible fiddle.

[Ken Waltham]

From Ken Waltham - "If I had to pick between a Dudenbostel, Ellis, Gilchrist, or any other, and a signed Loar F5,....". ,Even if it sounded let's say ''less good'' than the others ?. I'd always choose the one that sounded 'more pleasing' to ,my ears, irrespective of make, model, cost etc.& you can add a few far less expensive instruments into the mix if you'd care to,i'd still do the same. Would i choose a Northfield or Kentucky over a Dude.,.Gil., Ellis. Loar ? - if it sounded 'more pleasing' to me,yes,every time,
Ivan

I guess my point would be, they do sound better to my ear. Someone here said it takes a while to get to understand how to draw the tone from a mandolin, and Loars are no different. Having someone hand you one at a show, or in a shop is not like spending some time with it in your living room.
Bad ones... I have played a lot of them, probably as many as anyone. I never heard a bad one. Some need some TLC, and that's to be understood, but, they all sound like family to me.
The best example was the Feb 18 with Virzi and the blue lined OHSC. It finally sold out of Carter's. That was the deadest F5 I had ever played.
But... after it got some TLC from Tony Williamson, it turned out to be what it was supposed to be, a good mandolin. A typical Feb 18 mandolin, which are marvelous. I smiled to myself when I read a board members account of playing it when it was at Retrofret. He was describing how good it was. For 20 years or more, that F5 would not sell. Maybe 25 years. i have a paper here still, from the owner, wanting my Gilchrist and 25K for the F5.

[FLATROCK HILL]

Could someone post a link to Fretbear's McCoury video? For some reason, all I'm getting on my screen is a blank, white space where the video should be. Other videos seem to be fine.

Thanks

[Tobin]

The best example was the Feb 18 with Virzi and the blue lined OHSC. It finally sold out of Carter's. That was the deadest F5 I had ever played.
But... after it got some TLC from Tony Williamson, it turned out to be what it was supposed to be, a good mandolin. A typical Feb 18 mandolin, which are marvelous.

Out of curiosity, what kind of TLC did it receive? Are we talking replacement of parts, re-graduation, etc?