Sally Goodin--Mandolin Project Discussion

**craig** · Feb-26-2004, 5:25pm

per a member's suggestion. #this is to kick off the discussion on our song for the month of March, Sally Goodin'!

i'd have to agree with stanley, that i too like the sound of the double-stop section. #it brings a richness to the song. #still haven't gotten it down smooth, though.

contrary to that, i'm having trouble getting volume out of the fourth part of the song. #i play that whole part in 3rd position, but it sounds a bit dead. #anybody else playing it that way?

here's an example in tab for how i'm playing measures 27-29:

|-9-5-7-5-----5-7-|-9-7-9-7-5-7-5---|--------5---5-----|
|---------7-9-----|---------------9-|-7----7---9-------|
|-----------------|-----------------|---11-------------|
|-----------------|-----------------|------------------|

happy pickin'!

craig

**OzArkie** · Feb-26-2004, 5:51pm

Craig,

How is what you wrote in you post different to the TEF version?

They look the same to me.

**craig** · Feb-26-2004, 6:23pm

doh! by golly, you're right! i've been learning just from the standard note and didn't even look at the TAB, obviously.

my point was that you could play it like this instead:

|-9-5-7-5-----5-7-|-9-7-9-7-5-7-5-2-|-0----0-5-2-5-----|
|---------7-9-----|-----------------|---4--------------|
|-----------------|-----------------|------------------|
|-----------------|-----------------|------------------|

(i assumed that is what the TAB on TEF would have done.)

anybody playing it that way?

craig

**levin4now** · Feb-26-2004, 10:27pm

Good way to start the discussion...I hadn't started to really learn that part yet. I just sort of fumble through it, and your specific topic made me focus on it, and whilst I am not smooth at it, i realized that I could play it if i really worked at it - and hey it's not in the first position.

**MrSrubas** · Feb-27-2004, 12:10am

I don't know much about "YOUR SONG" but sally goodin' is one of my favorite tunes to play, and the lyrics are a blast too! but that is pretty high on the scale to be singing...where abouts is this post that you guys refer to? i'd be interested to see how it differs. I have seen a few different versions, but I think a good old timey tune like that can't really be sung any lower then it is played.

**Michael H Geimer** · Feb-27-2004, 9:40am

MrSrubas,
I would be the fool that volunteered to do vox. I found a recorded version done by Woodie Guthire where he sings, to your point above, he does the song in D. I just wasn't thinking about how I usually move the darned key of most every song I tackle - to suit my rather limited vocal capabilities.

Ultimately I agree with you, that this song wants to be in the key of A, and that's where I plan to stay. Some of those high notes are just gonna squeak a bit, but I'll give it my best, and to heck with the rest!

Tomorrow morning is when I'm planning to set down my scratch tracks, so I'll find out soon enough what I'm truly able to do with this tune.

Edit: LOL! I just grabbed a guitar and thought, hey I'll test the waters in A for a bit. ROTF!!!!!! I think I'll still keep it in A, but I'm just gonna have to go 8va south when I sing ... which really isn't so bad for me.

Nik, You gonna duet with me and sing those great rebuttal lyrics?

- Benignus

**Nik-chick** · Feb-27-2004, 2:59pm

Benig: Since I have an audition in a week, several songs to learn for a choir I just joined and a solo to practice for the dedication of our stained glass windows at our church...and don't get to practice any of it until I'm over this sore throat...that would be a negative. I don't think I'll have time to learn the melody to that too (or how it fits w/ the words anyway...I can't seem to keep time w/out singing "Four and One and Two and Three and Four and One and..." with the notes I'm picking.)

That, and you're in A and I'm in D (be courageous all YOU want, but I've already learned better the hard way! If I sang that thing in A...my starting note would be A 440 and up from there. I don't think so! Tho...how far below the starting note does it go? I could do it in the range a tenor would be in in A probably as long as the notes wouldn't go much lower than the register of the mandolin.)

*L* That's so me. I'm sitting here saying I'm not going to try to sing it, and thinking about what key I would sing it in in the same post.

**Bluegrasstjej** · Feb-27-2004, 5:16pm

My goodness, folks, I thought you asked for beginners?? I will never be able to learn that version in a month, unless I take a month's holiday from school and play the mandolin full-time!! It's really complicated and I feel really basic as you talk about it as it was just like any simple tune!

**craig** · Feb-27-2004, 6:39pm

susanne,

it's not as bad as it seems. yes, it is challenging, but there is a lot of repetition. also, if the double-stops in part 3 are throwing you off, you can probably just substitute part 1 in there. it seems to me the whole song could be mixed around really. often, simpler is better. doc watson pulls it off.

yeah, the recording thing is darn frustrating. i've tried many times (20+) with one song and i never gotten through without screwing it up. then, when i do, i go back and listen just to find that my timing is all over the place. it's definitely a humbling learning experience.

keep at it. you've got more than a month.

craig

**Michael H Geimer** · Feb-27-2004, 7:41pm

" *L* That's so me. I'm sitting here saying I'm not going to try to sing it, and thinking about what key I would sing it in in the same post. "
- Nik-chick

That's what makes you ... a singer! ... and me 'just some guy singing'.

Besides, I was just funnin' you about those cool parody lyrics you put up.

**Bluegrasstjej** · Feb-28-2004, 12:24pm

Oh Craig, thank you for telling me I'm not alone! I recorded the metronome beats yesterday for Sally, then added a new track with the tune and it just made me want to throw up! Which inspired another thread I started last night....It's humbling for sure!!!!!
But I must say it's a good experience because it gives me more motivation to work on timing. Martin adviced me on the other thread to download a computer metronome which is nicer than mine, because you can choose what you want it to sound like, including any kind of drum, bass, etc. Check it out at http://www.pinkandaint.com/weirdmet.shtml. You just have to download it and extract the files.

I have a hard time too, recording the whole song without screwing it up. That's my usual problem with all songs! I guess it's just about practice, until you know the tune so well that you don't even have to think while playing it.

**Michael H Geimer** · Feb-28-2004, 1:45pm

Ok ... I have mostly been looking at printed music that I have around for Sally Goodin, but last night I worked through the TEF file. One of the printed peices is a transcription of Monroe. That version is almost all wicked double-stop downstroke madness, classic Bill. But, one bit of phrasing really stood out to me as different way you could treat either measures 18-19, or measures 22-23. The 3 agsint 2 feel reminds me of a fiddler's phrasing, it really drives the rythym forward. I actually find it a tad easier, too.

|-----------------|-----------------|
|-4-2-0-4-2-0-4-2-|-0-4-2-0-----0-2-|
|-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-|-7-7-7-7-2-4-----|
|-----------------|-----------------|

- Benignus

... sorry about the messed up TAB. If anyone knows how I can get it straightened out, please let me know.

**craig** · Feb-28-2004, 2:25pm

benignus,

i like your rendition:

|-----------------|-----------------|
|-4-2-0-4-2-0-4-2-|-0-4-2-0-----0-2-|
|-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-|-7-7-7-7-2-4-----|
|-----------------|-----------------|

it does simplify it quite a bit. at least it's a repeating roll.

i've been experimenting with:

|-----------------|-----------------|
|-0-4-2-0-0---0-0-|-2-0---------0-2-|
|-7-7-7-7-7---7-7-|-7-7-4-2-2-4-----|
|-----------------|-----------------|

i think it's even simpler, but probably loses some of the drive that your bill monroe measures have.

what do you think?

**Michael H Geimer** · Feb-29-2004, 11:32pm

Well ... I'm a little embarrased to say this ... but I think I'm already done. That 'puter keeps track of each take I record, and the last number on the list is #478 - Eeeck!, that might really be a month's worth after all! #

Sure, I could keep hammering away at it for another thirty days, 'cause right now there sure aren't any of 'those' double stops, and I never do leave fisrt position ... but I've never described myself as a flashy player, so I'm inclinded to just leave it be ... at 478 takes!

Now, I did happen to get a few verses in there! Indeed, once I accepted that I just needed to sing it low, the vocals became the easiest part - who knew?

All in all, I'm actually very happy with this silly little tune. I seem to have fun working with tidy little 1-2 minute arrangements, as I can play simply and yet still keep things changing, and hopefully interesting. I'm also really happy I get the opportunity to share it here. It's like we all get to post a picture on the Cafe 'fridge.

Sally Goodin

- Benignus

**craig** · Mar-01-2004, 2:31am

benignus,

SWEET!! very nice job on this tune!! i nearly fell out of my chair. you're no beginner, that's for sure. i've put it on the project page if you don't mind:

Mandolin Project

nice rhythm. if i didn't have a hot cup of coffee in my hand i would've been dancing. gotta go to work, now, but i'll be humming this the whole way . . . "had a piece of pie, had a piece of pudding . . . . ."

**Michael H Geimer** · Mar-01-2004, 9:42am

Thanks craig! I am only a beginner in the sense of being new to mandolin, and string band music. I admit, I've been recording for while. Did you say you've already put it up on the Yahoo! site? (Ooops. I totally forgot I was supposed to put it there)

Major thanks for thr rythym comment! See, Saturday afternoon when I took a pause to eat some lunch I ran across a thread here about metronomes and rythym. I was already feeling very critical of the groove I had put down - always a personal weak area - and ended up resetting the click track so it would accent different beats, then I started all over!

Ok coffee time for me ...

**Bluegrasstjej** · Mar-01-2004, 9:46am

Oh gosh, this is really good. You have a wonderful voice and those guitar/mandolin harmonies are just awesome.

**craig** · Mar-01-2004, 11:18am

Benignus,

I've listened to your track a few more times. It's class stuff. Who did the guitar work?

You talked about a "click track". What does that mean and is that something i could do with the "audacity" software? You ain't seen nothing about poor timing until you hear my recording. I'd definitely need something like that.

Anyway, great job again. Can't wait to hear others comments on this. I should say that it's an intimidating piece of work, so i'll try to get my recording up soon to level the playing field for the more musically challenged.:laugh:

Craig

**stanley** · Mar-01-2004, 11:36am

hmmmm....doesn't sound anything like what I AM trying to do!!!! Thanks Mike. (nice job BTW)

Anyhow, spent most of the weekend skiing the aftermath of a 'gorilla sierra storm'...now its time to get a-crackin' at this thing. I like mike's slide up to the A note. Kinda the idling along thing from salt creek...and if I'm not careful I'll just start play SC. Nice touch though.

Craig, I've been messing around with different ways of playing the 'up the neck' part, but I think I'll stay with the intended fingering...mainly to excercise that pinky more. But I may find myself applying an alternate method occasionally...as that will help to 'tie notes together' around the fretboard (if that makes any sense).

At this point I haven't learned the second variation of the B part (maybe I'm wrong but I view this version of the song as 3 A part variations & 2 B part variations). And I must say that the first B part is a gas to play. Sorry, now I'm ramblin'...

Bill

**Michael H Geimer** · Mar-01-2004, 12:56pm

Hey, thanks again for the comments! I'll glady type some commentary on how I record - after being 'cooped up' all weekend recording, I'm a little starved for conversation, ya know?

I'm using a piece of multi-track software called Logic Audio, which is set up differently than 2-track software like Audacity. When recording something with more than one instrument, it is important to have an independent time keeper - the 'click track'. In my case, the 'click' comes from a drum machine that's hooked up via MIDI, but I've recorded my tabletop metronome too. I usually set the 'clicks' to beat on 2 and 4, but when I listened to the scratch tracks the groove just wasn't there ... so I switched it over so it would click on 1 and 3, but I had to start all in order to lock in with the new 'feel'.

So, with temporary guitar chords recorded for the entire song against the click, I start putting down the lead lines, and the vocals. I always try to go for the most natural 'feeling' performance I can muster. This is why I play simple parts with little or no ornamentation, so I can relax as much as I possibly can hopefully avoid sounding like 'the red light is on!' This is also why I 'obesses' on the work and try to finish what I've started 'while the iron is still hot'.

Now, here's my little secret ... Only after all the 'lead' parts are done, do I go back to record the final accompanyment. See, when I play live with a good soloist, I listen pretty intently to the lead lines in order support the phrasing. By recording my rythym parts last I can give my own parts the same sort of attention that I give the guys I play with. (I am not the lead player in any of the groups I'm in ... FWIW)

I hope nobody comes away thinking I did this to 'set a standard'. Gosh, nothing of the sort. In fact, I was a little nervous about posting something finfished so quickly. I'm also a little self concious about not being a beginner in a project that was originally billed as such. I really just want to have fun with some fiddle tunes! Plus, any close examination of my parts will show that I'm not really doing anything that technically advanced. I actually went to some length to 'dumb down' the trickier phrases ... mostly to keep my pinky out of the fray. Even with a month's preparation, I don't think I could get that TEF arrangement up to speed!

Craig, truly ... the hardest stuff was the guitar. Though guitar was my first instrument, I never really did much flatpicking on guitar until I picked up mandolin. Plus, there was just no way to avoid using my picky when playng those B sections on guitar! (some cramping happened)

OK ... some boring production notes:

There are only four tracks, with the idea of it being arranged for just two players - a guitar player, and a mandolin player - each singing. Everything was recorded using a single SM-57 mic about 10" away , which I only moved up to chin level when I sang - that distance is why you can hear my breathing in the guitar tracks from time to time. I hoped by keeping a set 'viewing distance' with the mic, that I could hold onto a somewhat natural feel. There are select 'punch ins' before each lead, but I always made sure to play through from the previous rythym part in order to maintain continuity. For those who don't know the term 'punch-in', it means that I didn't actually play it all through in one single take, but rather I was able to start and stop the recording at set points - choosing only the most successful efforts to keep - that sure helps, huh?

Minimal EQ. Minimal compression. No effects.

Thanks again for letting me share!

- Benig

**craig** · Mar-01-2004, 1:15pm

benignus,

thanks for the explanation. #although, it sounds like some additional equipment would be required in order for me to use a "click track". #maybe i'll use a metronome with just a visual (blinking light) or something. #as for an accompaniment, i'll have to talk my other mando buddy into chopping along or something.

anyway, we're glad to have you along regardless of whether you're a beginner or not. #i wasn't slagging you for that. #just trying to encourage the beginners by reassuring them that not all of us are up to the same level. #great job and thanks for participating! #

now, no fair getting a head start on the next song

craig

**stanley** · Mar-01-2004, 1:27pm

Wait....he isn't obligated to work on the double stops and up-the-neck stuff???

Sorry Benig, but I'm looking forward to that version.

Bill

**Michael H Geimer** · Mar-01-2004, 1:30pm

"...maybe i'll use a metronome with just a visual (blinking light) or something."

Not everything I do is a full-fledged multi-track evdeavour. I often record myself with a metronome set atop the piano clicking away ... if you put the mic next to one of the soundholes, you won't really hear too much 'bleed through' from the metronome. I even think it's sorta cool to hear a little 'click click' in the background ... it keeps it real.

**John Ritchhart** · Mar-01-2004, 2:46pm

God, I hate people with talent.

**OzArkie** · Mar-01-2004, 5:23pm

Oh my.

I suppose that the effort to learn 17 measures is not going to make it... *sigh*.

Benignus... awesome, simply awesome.

Is there a chance that you could post only the single mandolin track? It would help me hearing what one actually does.

Awesome, simply awesome... *sigh*

Thread: Sally Goodin--Mandolin Project Discussion

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