Trying to make an Irish music set

[Paulindrome]

Hi everyone,

I am a new mandolin player (just got mine a couple weeks ago) and I'm very new to the Irish music scene. The only piece I know so far is The Musical Priest. From what I've listened to, Jigs, Reels, etc., usually get connected to one or two other songs in order to make a sort of "set". So I have a general and a specific question.

Generally, are there any rules of thumb for how to make a set? Are there types of pieces that are played together, and are they put in a particular order?

Specifically, could anyone give me a suggestion on what might go well with The Musical Priest?

Thanks in advance for any advice!

[Eddie Sheehy]

The Musical Priest is a minor key, so follow it with a major, say The Maid Behind The Bar, and then back into a minor with Tam Lin.

[foldedpath]

If you're not already aware of it, the web site thesession.org is a good resource for information about tunes, and sometimes info about how people combine them in sets.

For example, here's the page on the Tune Search link that leads to The Musical Priest:

https://thesession.org/tunes/73

At the top of the page, you'll see an auto-generated mention of tunes it's often combined with (I think this is based on recordings in the database?). There is a full discussion below, which includes players mentioning what other tunes they use it for in sets.

As far as the rules go for combining tunes in sets, this is one of the most fun things about the music, because there are only a few classic sets that are usually played in sequence (like Sean Ryan's "The Castle" jig followed by "The Nightingale"). Most of the time, it's just whatever a local session or individual player thinks will sound good. It takes some experience to know what works. Sometimes you'll want to stay in one key for three tunes, other times you'll want the "lift" of moving between keys, which happen either shifting from minor to major, or major to minor depending on the tune!

There are also some informal rules about not changing dance rhythms within the set -- all jigs, or all reels, or all hornpipes -- although that's more Irish than Scottish/Cape Breton music, which has different ideas about sequencing different dance rhythms.

Anyway, once you've been playing this music for a while, you'll understand this better. Meanwhile, you might want to see what others are saying about these individual tunes over at thesession.org. There are discussions over there about how to put sets together if you search the Discussions area. Be advised that it's a somewhat more loosely moderated forum than this one, although not as rough-and-tumble as it used to be.

Welcome to Irish traditional music! It's a very, very deep well. Watch that you don't fall in...

[Paulindrome]

Thanks so much! I signed up for a Session account a while back, but I didn't realize they had the discussions at the bottom of the page. That's perfect.

[Colin Lindsay]

Be advised that it's a somewhat more loosely moderated forum than this one, although not as rough-and-tumble as it used to be.

That’s a polite way of saying it…

[Tim Griffin]

Finding established, well known sets is a good way to go because others will recognize the set. Check out sets from Bothy Band, DeDannan and others.

[JeffD]

There are a number of tune books that organize the tunes in sets. They are set up for playing dances, and the sets are designed to provide interest and variety without disrupting the flow of the dance.

[Paulindrome]

What's a good tune book I should be looking for?

[foldedpath]

What's a good tune book I should be looking for?

If you read standard notation, Dow’s 50 (Actually 60) Essential Tunes (link to free PDF file) is a good place to start.

[SMH]

Paul

You honestly don't need a book for two good reasons. First, there are massive collections on-line like The Session and http://www.traditionalmusic.co.uk/ir...dolin-tab.html The Traditional Music Library. I would only warn that some of the transcriptions have mistakes in them, which leads to reason 2.

Learn by ear!!! I began taking lessons from a very accomplished Irish Traditional mandolin player about a year ago, and he pressed me to do this. He has a degree in music as you do, so he can certainly read music well. I also can read music and used tabs before, but he insisted the best way to learn traditional music is the traditional way, and he is right. While I may play a tune sooner by reading the music (I can usually play it in a few minutes), I master the tune more quickly and much better when I learn it by ear. Here's the method he uses and works:

Get a good recording of the tune. There are a lot out there, the foinn seisiun collections are downloadable at the Colmhaltas web site for example. I also like to find YouTube videos of mandolin or tenor banjo players and use a free mp3 converter site.

Play it over and over and begin to "lilt" to it. Once its in your head lilt it to yourself repeatedly.

Get an app or computer program like The Amazing Slow Downer or Audacity and slow down the recording to about 50-60% and play the tune a phrase at a time until you can play along at that speed.

Then just play the tune as part of your practice until it's up to speed.

I will still refer to the music if there's a phrase or note that I'm just not getting, but using this method I easily learn 1 or 2 tunes a week pretty well.

Also, I see you are using a CT-55 pick. I have one and really like it for playing old time and bluegrass, but I think you will find a much thinner and pointier pick is better for getting the IT sound. Plus they are much easier when it come to triplets and speed. The most common you see IT mandolin players and tenor banjo players use is a nylon Dunlop .73mm. I also like the Dunlop Tortex .73. It has a little more stiffness because of the material.

Good Luck

Sean

[JeffD]

The Foinn Seisiun tunebooks are one example. I think there are four volumes.

A real good example, actually. Highly recommended.

[JeffD]

Don't let using tunebooks get in the way of learning by ear. Also, don't let learning by ear get in the way of reading music and using tunebooks.

[Bertram Henze]

Search youtube for the tune you have and listen to the sets it is played in. Then make your choice. One tune leads to another.
There will come a day when you have to step out and play in session. A real one.

[DougC]

The reason that there are many advisories to learn by ear is that written music not only does not capture the idiomatic styling of phrases and even the approach to individual notes but Irish music can be written in a variety of ways. So much needs to be learned that it is easier to use the traditional way, learning by ear, than it is to find a good source of written music and interpret it well to make it sound 'right'.

So it depends on you. Are you an expert in reading music? Do you have trouble learning by ear? Have you listened to real traditional Irish session music for many years?
Some things to consider.

Doug Cole
Author of the Saint Paul Slow Sessiun Irish Tune book. Available only from the author.

[Paulindrome]

Hi everyone,

Thanks for all the replies! Sorry I haven't responded for a while. I'm pretty good at reading standard, but I've done a bit of learning by ear before as well. I'm definitely faster at reading than I am at learning by ear, but the last thing I want to do is sound like someone who learned it out of a book and doesn't have the right feel, and since there's so much support for learning by ear, that's what I'll do!

That said, the links you showed me look like they'll be useful, if for no other reason than that I'll start learning what the more popular tunes are. I wouldn't want to spend all my time working on songs that never get played in sessions.

SMH, thanks for the tips about the picks. Any other advice regarding equipment or technique that I should heed while trying to play IT music?

[Beanzy]

Once you really get your ear in you'll find that the reading begins to make more sense because of that internalised feel you bring to the page. Being able to go to the old books then becomes an added aspect which brings even more pleasure to your involvement with the music. The ability to sit down with a few friends and explore tunes you don't know, either through sharing from one to many by ear, or reading through tunes then seeing how they should work is an area well worth working on. It has long been an important part of keeping the tradition alive, less visible than the pub session but really good for cementing musical bonds and partnerships which can last a lifetime, even generations. It's possibly why those old books like Kerrs sold well back in the day, especially as people moved away from their communities to more urban lives. If you can find a pal or two who may be interested in doing similar sessions it would stand you in good stead in terms of getting a repertoire of tune sets under your fingers. It doesn't matter if no one has much background in the tradition yet, that's what you'll be working on, using everything you can. When you do go to a session it's so much easier to call a tune if you've already played it with someone else who's sitting beside you and you know it works. You just head into things with much more confidence that way. So if you can find another player or two to work things up then get them on board.

As a personal preference I like to see a piece notated very straight, leaving the real feel and flow up to the musicians. I hate a fussy score for traditional tunes as you may like them one way one time and another the next pass. If they dot the bejayz out of it it kind of spoils it for me. The problem with that though is it gives the uninitiated no sense of what's really happening below the surface. So definitely best to learn with your ears, but keep training your eyes for interpreting the dots in different ways so you're laying the foundation for later.

[Bren]

Well said Eoin/Beanzy. I started playing mandolin with a copy of Jack Tottle's Bluegrass book in one hand and Vols 1 & 2 of Kerr's Merrie Melodies in the other (not literally). I went through it playing tunes until I heard something I recognised and went from there.

Learning by ear is great and if you've any kid of ear at all you'll be doing that anyway the minute you sit down and play with experienced musicians, no matter how you learned the tune originally.

The reality for a lot of us is that we practise quietly in the house while others re asleep or watching TV , or on the road in hotels etc, in snatched moments. You really can't beat a good music book or dots in those circumstances.

if I hear a good tune in a session I'm not shy in asking the name and looking it up. If a band has a new set, maybe they'll send me the dots of some tunes to learn. Then you hone it and pick up bits by playing with others.

[Bertram Henze]

As a personal preference I like to see a piece notated very straight, leaving the real feel and flow up to the musicians. I hate a fussy score for traditional tunes as you may like them one way one time and another the next pass. If they dot the bejayz out of it it kind of spoils it for me.

The first thing I do before printing a new tune from thesession.org is editing all the kinks out of the ABC code until I get the recognizable core. Later, I build my own rendition on that.

One of the musicians I play with uses the Tunepal app to ID tunes. He says it works well with tunes played on flute, whistle, fiddle, but when I play a tune it recognizes nothing...