Gibson/Old Wave Comparison

**John Flynn** · Apr-18-2005, 10:28pm

I just got a new Old Wave A oval. I was really looking for that classic oval sound and it did not dissappoint. I got to do a "tasting" this evening at my lesson with Curtis Buckhannon. Using a Sony mike that has proven to be incredibly good, I did a mini-disc recording of him playing the great A modal fiddle tune, "Pretty Little Dog," first on his well-seasoned 1920 Gibson A2. Then with the same set up, right down to the pick, he played the tune again on my OW. I just listened to the two cuts side-by-side.

My first impression was that the two instruments sounded more similar than different. Bill Bussman really did capture the classic oval sound. The Gibson seemed more focused on that heavy mid-range, "tubby" sound, although they both had a lot of that. Also, the Gibson seemed a little louder, but not by much. But the Old Wave had a much crisper, clearer tone, like the notes were more distinct, instead of "muddled together." It sounded more "bell-like." Also the Old Wave had the Gibson beat hands down in the bass range and I think overall it was more even across the whole range.

All in all, it was an interesting exercise!

**atetone** · Apr-19-2005, 12:22am

Mando Johnny,, yes that is very interesting. I have been wondering about those Old Wave oval holed mandolins for a while now.
When you said the Old Wave "beats the Gibson hands down in the bass range" what do you mean? In what way? Clearer? more direct? Louder?
Curious minds need to know!
Do you have a picture of the Old Wave?

**danb** · Apr-19-2005, 1:34am

I played some of Bill's oval-holed As at zoukfest a few years ago- I agree with your impression that they sound a lot like the old Gibson snakeheads. Very nice instruments

**John Flynn** · Apr-19-2005, 5:52am

I meant the bass is both clearer and louder. I hope to repeat this experiment at next weeks lesson with recordings I can convert into MP3s to post. I didn't plan ahead this time and I recorded in the wrong format.

The link below is to the pix Elderly had of my mando. I tried taking my own pix, but I couldn't get my wife's digital camera to cooperate with my new laptop. Elderly probably did a better job than I could anyway.
http://www.elderly.com/new_instruments/items/OW23.htm

**kyblue** · Apr-19-2005, 6:50am

That looks great. I hope to get to hear one of these one day.

**Onesound** · Apr-19-2005, 7:12am

I agree that Oldwave's sound a lot like old Gibson's. But, with any taste test, one also has to consider what kind of strings are being used on both instruments, and how much time is on each set. There can be a pretty big difference between any two mandos of the same make and model, too.

Cheers,
Brian

**John Flynn** · Apr-19-2005, 9:56am

Originally Posted by

one also has to consider what kind of strings are being used on both instruments, and how much time is on each set

Good point. The strings on both were J74s, but the set on the Gibson was probably older. It's funny, though, Curtis is alway complaining that he needs to change his strings, but hasn't because he hates to change strings. But to me, his mando always has the same great sound, old strings or new. In addition, I have found on other mandolins that in some ways, J74s actually sound a little better when they get a older, before they actually go "dead."

It really would be hard to get a completely fair tasting, with absolutely every variable removed. I wasn't even trying to be scientific. I just wanted to get a read on whether my new mando was in the ballpark. It was, and I thought the board might find the observation interesting.

**danb** · Apr-19-2005, 10:42am

I compared it with a snakehead at ZF, I think the comments are quite close to the mark. I've got a decent snakehead which has more separation than the original post lets on, but I've played a number of them that are "muddy" too. My very narrowly tested opinion is the earlier ones (brown tops generally) seem to have an edge over the later ones (black tops). My test sample size is less than 10 though!

It'll be 11 soon when craig makes it here.

Bill's really got his act together though with those oval-holed As. I also think he makes mean guitar-bodied OMs. You should probably have to pay extra if you get to talk to him on the phone, he had me peeing my pants nearly at zoukfest.

**Lee** · Apr-19-2005, 12:18pm

A 1924 Snakehead oval visited my house several weeks ago and we compared with a recent Old Wave oval-A and Mando Johnny's description is right on the money. I couldn't have said it better myself.
I've had J74's on the OW, J67's and Martin M400's. The J67's don't do it on this mandolin. I recall the M400's were soft sounding but very pretty. The J74's were fine, but for some reason the OW seems to enjoy the lighter gauge better.

**mandomick** · Apr-19-2005, 7:44pm

You guys are making my fingers itchy. Bill is in the last stages of finishing one of his oval hole A's for me. Non-traditional woods though; mesquite back and sides with maple binding, ironwood fingerboard and figured redwood top. I have one of his oval hole C# 'dolas made of the same woods and the sound is outstanding! (IMO) If I keep thinking about it I'll have to up the meds and go dig out the drool bucket.

**acousticphd** · Apr-20-2005, 5:10pm

[/QUOTE]The Gibson seemed more focused on that heavy mid-range, "tubby" sound, although they both had a lot of that. ....... But the Old Wave had a much crisper, clearer tone, like the notes were more distinct, instead of "muddled together." It sounded more "bell-like." [QUOTE]

This description by Mando Johnny sums up what I hear, too, most especially on the two treble strings of the two OW A-ovals I've had. Very clear, and clean. And overall, a crisper edge on the sound than most of the old Gibson ovalholes seem to have. It would be neat to know what 80 yrs of aging will add to the sound of today's OWs.

For several years after I first heard and played a wonderful-sounding OW ovalhole, its sound sort of became a benchmark for what I liked. Few vintage instruments sounded as good to me, while others (I thought) sounded quite a bit poorer. Again, limited sample size factors in. With time my appreciation of (and desire for) the old Gibsons has grown, and I've heard a lot more good ones. Now I have a couple old Gibson As, and a '99 OW A-oval that I don't think has been played a great deal. Newer, is what it sounds like for one thing, but the descriptions above generally apply. I would have to say though that the two Gibsons ('17 A1 and '18 A) differ noticeably. One has a sweeter, woody sound; the other's tone is much crisper and a little louder, and it's now the one I prefer. Just different kinds of good.

**pickinNgrinnin** · Apr-20-2005, 11:02pm

Nice looking Mando MJ! Bill seems to have a knack for finding beautiful wood. Look forward to hearing the recordings

**Keith Erickson** · Apr-21-2005, 3:01pm

I'm majorly jealous. I'm looking to get an Old Wave for quite sometime. I was all set to go with it however something like a new house had to come and mess my plans up

Once I get the "financial" house in order, it looks like Old Wave will be the way to go again. Mando Johnny, I wish I was wearing your shoes right now.

**fatt-dad** · Apr-21-2005, 6:54pm

Mando Johnny,

I think it's the coolest thing that you bought that mandolin. Not that I've played it or even one at all. I just have heard great things about them and loved reading your notes. Was it new from Elderly? I wonder if the "opening" up is complete, re: the Gibson being louder?

**John Flynn** · Apr-29-2005, 7:45pm

Here is the follow-up on this thread. I recorded a 1,568 KB MP3 file of this tasting, but I just realized that is too large to post. If anyone knows of a place I can easily post it and link to it, I would appreciate it. The sound quality turned out pretty good and I think it is a pretty enlightening comparison.

**John Flynn** · Apr-29-2005, 8:16pm

OK, at PhilGE's suggestion, I put the file on the Mandolin Project site. The link is below.

Both mandos are strung with J74s. The ones on the Gibson are definitely older. Of course, the Gibson is well played and "opened up," while the OW is brand new. I will say, though, that just in the two weeks I have had it and played it hard, I have seen some noticeable improvement. Some of that may be pride of ownership and wishful thinking, but at least some of it is real. The OW generally sounded great right out of the box, but there were a few specific notes and chords that sounded a little tinny to me at first. That tinniness has faded and those notes and chords are now sounding great. This is also an instrument that sounds better with a "warm up." It improves after a half hour or so of play over how it sounds right out of the case. I'm interested to hear anyone's observations on the MP3.

http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group...project/files/

**danb** · Apr-30-2005, 8:13am

On "tubby" tone on snakeheads.. the really good ones have that "Bell like tone". I'll have some clips soon of my good one that can sort of illustrate that!

Funny though, this is true of nearly any old Gibsons. There are good ones with paddle heads from the 1910s and 20s, the snakeheads just about 50% more likely to be "The good ones". I guess I've probably played something in the vicinity of 50 Gibson As in my time, and I like my current snakehead the best. There are absolutely *enormous* gains to be made with new bridges, frets cleaned up, nuts examined, braces tightened. If you budget $250 to get a tune-up on a vintage Gibson, you will do pretty well overall.

My take on it is the first thing to do is make sure they intonate correctly (frets not eccentric, nut correct, bridge in right spot). Next off, you replace the bridge (especially if it's adjustible) with one that fits perfectly. Can't overemphasize how much this step contributes, it's as much as 50% of the tone quality!

**John Flynn** · Apr-30-2005, 8:16am

Originally Posted by

you replace the bridge (especially if it's adjustible) with one that fits perfectly

Dan, are you recommending a non-adjustable bridge over an adjustable? If so, any particular design or material? Got pix?

**acousticphd** · Apr-30-2005, 3:35pm

Mando Johnny,

One thing about all the oval-hole Old Waves I've had/played (2 A's, and a C#) that have the fingerboard attached directly on the top, is that they have a very low bridge height when adjusted - for all three I've had, around 5/8". In fact, their great sound pretty much disproves to me that a tall bridge is really an important determinant of good tone and volume. I'm curious if this is true for yours?

If one was replacing an adjustable bridge with a solid 1 pc bridge, it would be nice not to have to start by grinding it down by >1/4". The 1 pc bridges I've been able to find seem to have a starting height of ~1". Is a custom job required tor advised to get the "perfect" 1 pc bridge?

**John Flynn** · Apr-30-2005, 4:39pm

Mr. Bussman must have changed the formula between yours and mine. My bridge is just a hair under 7/8" properly adjusted. BTW, where do you find these ready-made 1" one-piece bridges?

**danb** · Apr-30-2005, 5:14pm

Originally Posted by (jflynnstl @ April 30 2005, 14:16)

Originally Posted by

you replace the bridge (especially if it's adjustible) with one that fits perfectly

Dan, are you recommending a non-adjustable bridge over an adjustable? If so, any particular design or material? Got pix?

Sorry what I meant was really that especially the adjustible saddles on bridges get damage to them that affects the tone, every 60 years or so it should get replaced. Usually if you get it fit right, it's better than the original one would have fit anyway!

I use Darryl's Loar bridge copies, there are several like them.. Darryl's always seem to be the ones that don't have any problems with little chips or cracks in the wood. We put one on 76547 at wintergrass, I put one on my current snakehead, and another pair of them went on different Gibsons I helped set up recently. A huge face-lift on the tone when you go from a pretty good bridge fit to a perfect one, especially if you replace a sagging saddle (the sagging shows it's not working right!)

**bdisp** · Apr-30-2005, 11:11pm

Dan,
I know what you mean by "bell like tone". My A-2 Snakehead has just that. Great seperation of notes and alot of "expression". It can go from a whisper to a in-your -face-get-outta-the-way in an instant. All in an oval kinda way of course.

The new bridge thing has me thinking. My A-2 has the ol' Loar bridge. How does one get a new bridge from Darryl?

**Clyde Clevenger** · May-01-2005, 11:49am

Stopped by Cartwright's yesterday to see only 2 mandolins hanging on the wall, one was sold, a very sad sight for me. Ken pointed to a case sitting on the floor and said, "Give that one a spin". Opened the case to find an Old Wave F-4. Man o Man. What a box. Beautiful workmanship but the tone was even better, rings like a bell doesn't cover it. More like it had a built in reverb, sustain for days. I don't have an F-4 or an Old Wave, yet.

**Mando Medic** · May-01-2005, 2:50pm

Thanks Clyde...........Funny thing about that Old Wave, I had owned it once before and hard a had time letting go of it but did. Not this time! I have owned a lot of Gibson F-2 and F-4's and yes they are pretty things but never had one that rang my bell. Bussman is my hero for F-4's. Good looks, good color, great sound and you can't beat the price. So even though I have the best sounding Collings this side of Montana, I now have the best sounding F-4 too. Life is good! Kenc

**mcH** · May-01-2005, 3:39pm

That "sold" Chinchen mandolin on the wall at Ken Cartwright's is now mine... I called Thursday and found out he had it. I've only heard it over the phone, and seen pictures via email, so it should be one fun time when it gets here.