Any thoughts on a good Octave Mandolin for Celtic player

[marshamo]

I've played Celtic mandolin for several years (previous guitar player) and have recently gotten a Trinity Church Octave Mandolin. It's convinced me that I LOVE the OM, but am only slightly fond of the Trinity Church. I want a better instrument.
Not any OM's locally that I can try other than more Trinity's.
Are Webers any good? They certainly cost enough, but would be willing to look into them.
Ideas?

[Colin Lindsay]

I love the OM but here in the UK we have great manufacturers such as Fylde and Sobell. It’s difficult to recommend anything from your part of the world but I’d advise a lot of trial before you buy. Some of the cheaper brands can be surprisingly good so I’d camp out in a few local instrument shops and see what they have to offer. I used to choose by going along the rows of instruments for sale and play without looking at the brand name; it all depended on the feel, the playability and the tone. One of my favourites is a home-made model with pencil marks and adhesive stains but it plays like a dream, so cost is no indicator of enjoyment.
I’ve heard very good reports of Weber, but never played one.

[Bertram Henze]

only slightly fond of the Trinity Church. I want a better instrument.

I suppose you mean Trinity College (the Celtic cross on the headstock may suggest otherwise...). It's a good starter instrument and obviously has done its job.

I second Colin Lindsay's mention of Fylde (very good quality for the money). Sobell, of course, has the absolute top reputation (and price levels), but his instruments are not easy to come by, except the odd used one here and there. There is Paul Shippey, another UK maker whose instruments are famous for their ringing tone.
In the US, Weber provide some very good instruments, as the Gallatin OM (see this thread) and the Octar.
YouTube is full of examples of them all.

[nickster60]

I haven't heard many complants about Weber Octaves. For a US based instument they would be hard to beat.

[Eddie Sheehy]

Richard Beard OM's and zouks are superb...

[jmp]

Not any OM's locally that I can try other than more Trinity's.

If Location: Bay Area means San Francisco bay area, then you should monitor Gryphon Stringed Instruments in Palo Alto from time to time. Over the years I've been able to try different OMs including Weber, Peterson, Fylde, etc. Right now they have a Nugget OM but they're asking $18K so not even bothering to touch that one.

[EdSherry]

Unfortunately, there are few places that have instruments in stock for you to try out. As JMP says, Gryphon is your best bet in the SF Bay Area, but their selection is often pretty thin.

As a step up from the TCs, I've long been a fan of the Petersens, but I understand he may have retired, so you may have to search for a used one.

The old Flatiron "pancake" OMs are nice, but getting up there in price these days.

I built an OM in a class offered by Rick Turner at the Crucible in Oakland; I don't know how often he offers the class, but it ran two consecutive weekends a couple of years ago.

[multidon]

If you like the TC scale length you will be looking for something around a 20 inch scale length. Many OMs have longer 22 or 23 inch scale length and therefore will not be as easy to play as your TC so be careful. Weber makes both s 20 inch and 22 inch.

For a very reasonable 1100 dollars Walt Kuhlman (Gypsy's Music) will make you an excellent hand crafted luthier made OM. I am a former owner and can honestly say his instruments have great build quality and represent great bang for the buck.

Weber used to make nice flat top OM's but discontinued them a couple of years ago. They were called the "Sage" model and can be found used from time to time for around a thousand bucks.

As mentioned above Petersen instruments are nice but he no longer builds so you have to look for a used one. He built them in levels, the main differences being cosmetic. Level 1 can be had used for under a thousand when they come up.

The Mandolin Store carries a line called Lafferty, their store brand, made by Red Valley. I never played one but they look well made for 1300 brand new with case. I think if you contacted Red Valley directly you could get one branded that way too.

My OM is a Fender, no longer made, which is a kissing cousin to the TC, made in a factory they also used in the past. I love the sound and actually prefer the tone to Weber Sages I have played. But here is the difference. "Normal" OM strings sound lousy and feel floppy on short scale instruments. The commercial string sets are made for "average" OMs of 22 to 23 inches. I bought mine used from a gentleman who took it to a luthier and it set up, with nut and bridge adjustments, to use light gauge mandola strings. The difference in tone and feel is significant. So believe it or not I haven't played anything yet that makes me want to give up my "cheapie" Fender. Why do you want something better? If the tone and/or playability needs improvement, it can be done with a trip to a luthier at minimal expense. Those Trinity College instruments are amazingly nice and really, when set up well, represent good value. There are, by the way, professionals that use them. If your reasons for wanting better quality is to have a higher level of craftsmanship, a nicer looking instrument, pride of ownership, and other intangibles, that is perfectly understandable. All of the alternatives I gave you above are well under 1500 dollars. If you want to spend more than that, then the sky is the limit and you can have pretty much anything you want custom made.

[ptritz]

Another option - Nick Apollonio has an octave mando listed in the classifieds right now that's in the same price range. Hard to go wrong with one of Nick's instruments.

[foldedpath]

Since you asked about Webers... I couldn't be happier with my Weber OM. It's a Yellowstone F model that I was lucky enough to find used at half price. The fancy scroll and all is superfluous (but cool as a showpiece at gigs). It's the sound that grabs me. And you can get that same tone with an F-hole A style Weber. Same body, same tone.

The tone is a bit "dark" compared to the 'zouk inspired family of flattop OM's, but it's also very loud and punchy. The tone on the YouTube clip linked on this recent thread is basically what my Weber sounds like (listed as a "mandola" here, which is more of a UK thing):





There is also this Sierra Hull clip (a blatant Weber promo, but worth seeing):





If you can't find a used one, the The Mandolin Store seems to have the best selection of Weber OM's. Contact them for their current "try and return" policy.

[foldedpath]

Oh, there's one more thing I should mention about Weber OM's. Maybe two things, come to think of it.

The neck on my Weber, and I think all of them, is a fairly substantial "U" shaped profile. I've heard some people say it feels too much like a baseball bat. But it's comfortable under my hand, and I think probably a good thing, considering the string tension and fairly narrow neck for the scale length. It does have a truss rod, but my Weber OM has required no adjustment over the last few years for seasonal climate changes. It's a very stable neck.

The other thing -- scale length. I play mainly melody on my 22" scale OM, which requires a bit of adjustment for the same tunes I play on mandolin. Mainly a bit more hand sliding on the high B for fiddle tunes. I'm a 6' 2" tall guy, so my hands are not small, but it's still a stretch on the faster tunes. But I can manage.

If you choose a 20" scale instrument you'll have easier fingering, but you'll lose a little sustain... and for me, sustain is the big thing with an OM. I can always capo up, if I need to play a tune that needs it and I don't have to be in the same key as other session players. Speaking just for myself, I wouldn't trade off the longer sustain of the 22" scale to get easier fingering, but your mileage may vary on that. Especially if you have smaller hands.

[Johnozouk]

There are many good instrument makers and everyone has their favorite. You should take a look at Herb Taylor whose reputation seems to be getting better and better as more folks discover his instruments. http://herbtaylor.com/instruments/ Just up the coast from you is Phil Crump http://pwcrumpco.com/. With both of these folks, and many other luthiers, you can talk to them about what you want and they will work with you to build an instrument that meets criteria you want.

[Lord of the Badgers]

I have tried a Weber OM - RobbieJ (is a member but rarely posts) has one so I've tried his. Preferred it to the Fylde I had (now sold to my bandmate). Granted, the Weber was an A5 style compared to the oval holed Fylde - different sound! Just found it more playable.

[bruce.b]

http://www.herbtaylor.com/instruments/bouzouki/

[Eddie Sheehy]

Here's a list of likely suspects:

http://www.mandolincafe.com/cgi-bin/...rmat=headlines

[Gerry Cassidy]

I've played Celtic mandolin for several years (previous guitar player) and have recently gotten a Trinity Church Octave Mandolin. It's convinced me that I LOVE the OM, but am only slightly fond of the Trinity Church. I want a better instrument.
Not any OM's locally that I can try other than more Trinity's.
Are Webers any good? They certainly cost enough, but would be willing to look into them.
Ideas?

I would recommend you look into http://www.pwcrumpco.com/

He's just a bit north of you in Arcata. I currently own one of his GOM's and have played a handful of his flat tops. I found them to be very similar in tone/sound to the two Sobell I have owned. Great for Celtic stuff.

As for Weber's? I've owned a few of them. Mandolins, 'Dola's, and OM's. I kept giving them a chance, over and over because I liked their looks, but ended up letting them all go. I found them to be overly dark, and overbuilt: weighty, and the necks are seriously chubby. For my money, in their price range there are many already mentioned by others in this thread that I would look at first.

[Rob Zamites]

I'd second the suggestion of Nikos Apollonio - I'll have a beautiful cittern here very soon, he's a great guy to talk to, and is a great craftsman. Another one I thought of was TJ at cricketfiddle.com - his OM's are eye candy!

[Eddie Sheehy]

+1 on foldedpath's comment. It's not just the necks, it's the whole dynamic of the carved-top with f-holes. Carved top with f-holes are the more expensive combos out there and for Celtic are blown away by round-hole flat tops - Beards, Crumps, Fyldes. For Celtic music Sustain and ringing tones are king. Carved top f-holes are better for quick decay, darker, punchy, sounds - favored by contemporary and BG players... I've had several makers in all styles and round-hole OM's are my favs.

[mikeyes]

I second Herb Taylor instruments, but since you live in the SF area, you should go to the Plow and Stars session and ask around there. This is a top level session and the members are very knowledgable. In addition is it likley that you will see a variety of OMs there while having a great time.

Herb has some of the great OMs that I have seen. go to his site and see roger landes play them. Give him a call and he will make one for you to fit your needs. In addition his prices are very reasonable.

Mike Keyes

[Marcus CA]

I agree with Eddie that if you want an OM for playing Celtic music, an oval-hole one will serve you better. I bought my Peterson Level 3 OM (spruce top, maple back and sides) at Gryphon, back when he was building and they were one of only several authorized dealers that he used. His instruments used to come up every month or two in the Cafe Classified, but that seemed to stop when Bill retired. I got to play several of his OM's at Gryphon, and thought that the Level 3's were better than the Level 2's, and the Level 2's were better than the Level 1's. Some people say that the only difference was in the appointments, but I wonder if he also was using his better stock for the higher-level instruments. The build was consistently great, regardless of the level.

I'll also second the praise of Richard Beard's instruments. I have a cittern of his that sounds even better than it looks, and it looks gorgeous. The tone and sustain are incredibly rich.

I'm a huge Weber fan, but their OM's haven't thrilled me. Part of that may be because I've only played their f-hole models, and I really prefer the tone of oval-hole OM's.

I did try out the Nugget at Gryphon that jmp mentioned. The materials, design, and build are as outstanding as everyone would expect. As for tone, it would be interesting to do a blind side-by-side listening test of it with a Weber f-hole OM. The Nugget probably would win, but even if your wallet could handle the $12-15K price differential, your ear probably wouldn't detect most of that.

[dmcginnis]

I agree with the comments on Phil Crump's instruments - wonderful to play and really nice sound. I also want to throw Paddy Burgin's name into this discussion - he built an OM for me that is amazing. His prices are pretty good for a custom build, too.

[Troy H]

If you're willing to spend Weber money, I'd strongly recommend a custom-made instrument. They can be had for similar $$ and are a much more personal & enjoyable experience than buying something off the rack.

[Ancient]

I have a Weber Gallatin F model octave 20" and love it. It is easy to play and has a fantastic sound. All Webers are pretty much the same. The only difference and you pay extra for it,is inlay and trim. Yes it more expensive but look at what you get for the money.

[jonny250]

I have a 'Weber Custom Vintage A' with 22" neck. as Folded path said, the neck is quite wide so worth checking if you look at a specific instrument. however i like it that way altho i dont have particularly large hands. The sound from this octave is huge though. Bruce weber advised my to go for the 22" over the 20" for slightly better sound [cant be much in it or they wouldnt sell the 20" i guess], although for tunes i wonder whether the 20" would have been easier - i couldnt try first. very happy with my Weber octave

[seumus bogus]

I've been playing a James Jones 4-course 25 years and couldn't be happier. I tune it GDAE, low to high, and it is loud and throaty. Its volume allows me to lighten up my right hand touch at sessions, which gives me the opportunity to be sort of a rhythmic back seat driver. I push the groove and nobody really knows!